Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions M80v3 + DSP vs M80v4

OK,
I have M80v3 and was thinking maybe upgrading to the M80v4 HP sometime.
However, I am quite satisfied with the M80's I have. Just wish a tad more bass was there with music.
I really like not to use subs with music. Therefore was thinking M80v4 HP.
However, at $2000 is it really worth the upgrade ?? I can say yes, if that's what I really really want is a tad more bass. However, can this not be adjusted with ARC or Audessy or even a good EQ and REW ?
Currently my setup is two channel as I am displaced for a couple years until I can build a movie room, I can see setting up a 7.1 in my living room.

Then I am looking at the DSP Broadband Digital Signal Processor and looking at what it does with the M80v3 ....it seems that the freq. Graph is even flatter and smooth's out the bass to that of the V4HP .....

My question is, would this DSP and the ARC ( Auto Room Correction ) not just be counter productive ? Would this DSP at $833 be almost as good as buying v4HP.? It definitely looks like it is better than upgrading to plain M80v4's.

Currently my setup is Anthem AVM30 with the Anthem MCA50. in a couple years I want to exchange for a Anthem MRX720 when and if it comes out. and keep the M80v3 or upgrade to M80v5/HP ???

I am a huge fan of subs for music; however, one has to choose quality sub(s) that produce accurate, quality sound. Axiom subs have been known over the years to be very 'musical' (whatever that means) but they are not inexpensive.

My twin EP400s are stunning for music (set by ear) as are my EP800s in my HT (800s set by Audyssey for movies). The beauty of sub/sat systems is that one can easily dial in the bass level that suits your fancy. I set mine where they really sound great & then I dial them back a tad. People who hear my M2s/EP400s system are quite astounded by the big sound.

Worth checking out IMO...

TAM

I have listened to M80v4 and found that the speaker did an astounding job of bass for the most part. But I had a friend over and he brought a Jeff Beck CD over to have a listen and compare my Axioms to his Totem speakers.

His opinion was that the Axtiom didn't have enough bass and felt like the bottom end of the speaker frequency was a bit soft. I turned up the bass on the receiver and he said that was just perfect. But with that setting, then my Holly Cole was just over emphasized.

I then traded my M80's in for LFR1100 and I would say the same holds true for that Jeff Beck CD with the LFR's that have an extra set of the HP woofers.

If you ask me, I would look at what you have recorded fist before changing a set of speakers. Those M80's are pretty flat to begin with and just flattening them out some more is not going to give you what you are looking for. If the recording was mixed to a monitor that had a lower frequency bump like many speakers do, then when you play that source on a flat properly voiced speaker then you are going to find it lacking in that range.

Hi Troy,

I know you are (probably) not going to want to hear this, but a pair of M100s would certainly give you what you are looking for in terms of an M80v3 with a tad more bass. Since you are going to be sticking with a 2-channel only setup for a while it might also make sense to look into the LFR1100s as they will give you both more bass and a much larger, enveloping soundstage in stereo.
The M80v4HP will be a better all-round performer than the M80v3, but the difference in bottom end is fairly subtle, unless you are really pushing the system where the lower bass distortion will be evident on the HP.

Andrew

Why don't you like to use a sub with music?

My advice is to stick with the M80v3 and get yourself a nice sub.

Thanks guys
TAM .... just not quite there with the Sub/Sat for music. Movies yes, loved my MK750's and SUBS.
Andrew thanks and yes probably would be, but my room will not accommodate the M100's when it is finished. I am hearing 2 ft from back wall and that would put them 4 ft into the room. My room is going to be 12 x 17. I had 12' x 23' section for the movie room, unfortunately it has become a dream bedroom for my teen daughter. Eventually, it will be mine, just outside my TV room.
That said, looks like I may just have to do a side comparison with the HP's eventually.
MoJo:
No I just can't get into a sub. I like a quick, tight punchy sub. I think if I could have a setup where with movies I could have the EP500's and with music maybe the EP400's.
Just find that subs are a bit too boomy, specially when calibrated for music.
It's kind of like getting a punch to the head by Floyd Mayweather or Ali. There both gonna hurt but, Floyd gonna be a sharp, quick thump, whereas Ali's going to big a thud and still hurt lol.

"...subs are a bit too boomy, specially when calibrated for music."

Then I would say that the subs you've heard:

a) were situated improperly in a room,
b) were calibrated wrong,
c) were unable to be calibrated properly,
d) simply sucked because they suffered from audible distortion.

I have a $125 sub I purchased from London Drugs in 2003 that would melt your heart in your 12 x 17 room without denting your wallet. I use it with my (now somewhat crippled) Audiobytes and still love the hell out of it.

My buddy bought the Mirage Omni-S10 from Visions for $275 a few months back and after I moved it away from the corner and calibrated it for him, he's in heaven.

No boom in either of my rooms. Just clean articulate & powerful bass with both models. If you are hearing boom then something is just not right.

My M2s + EP400s are driven by a puny 35/Ch Tube Integrated Amp; however, my Tubes plus the twin EP400s give me 500W + 500W + 35W + 35W for a total of 1070W of really clean 2 CH power. If you like tight & punchy, the EP400 has it in spades but not for HT in larger rooms.

It is a very potent system that doesn't look at all large...

TAM

I guess boomy was not a good choice of wording.
I just prefer the sound better.
I have no doubt the two EP400's would be perfect. Just that little extra size driver, yet good bottom end. Quick and punchy and defininatly more in the area I would like that the M80 will go.
I even mentioned I think the M80's and one EP400 each would probably be awesome.

Why cannot Axiom just build a M80 and make it a tad bigger and put a 8" driver and amp in the bottom from the EP400.
That would be the killer speaker. Play loud, awesome Highs and Mids, Upper bass for the dual 6.5's and bottom end.

This would be exactly what I am looking for. and the amp wattage would not need be 400w.

maybe it is just the receiver I was using as a pro/pro.
I just bought a Anthem AVM30 to go along with my Anthem MCA50.
I will be doing some listening when I connect it all next week.

Sounds like a design liked by GoldenEar. The triton towers are as you mentioned. Kinda neat but I never liked their plastic looks.

Ok the M100 are 47.5x9.25x17
the M80's are 39.5 x 9.25 x 17.
the EP400 13.5 x 10.5 x 16.8

I say here's a project for Andrew.
Take a M100 cabinet increase the size by wider. delete the bottom woofer.
throw in a 8" EP400 driver, decrease the watts to say 250w. the cabinet box would be practically the same size as the area of the EP400. It also, doesn't need to drop to 18hz something in the area of 27hz and at 85db then it can drop off.
It would be a hybrid system, run in full range, not LFE.
it would have the internal three way cross over except a filter to allow the 6.5" to smooth out, the filter would pick up around the 80 hz area and go to the internal sub amp

Strictly for music these would be.

Troy:

I mused about that type of a speaker some time ago. When I visited the factory a couple of years ago I spied an 'experimental' speaker - 3-way I think - that had the EP400 8" driver. I don't know if it was powered or not.

Powered tower designs don't seem to be too popular for some reason; however I would love to have an M2 + powered EP400 in the same tower in HG Rosewood, ha!!...

TAM

hmmm sounds like the Bryston project ........

Perhaps...

TAM

Power towers pretty much always force a compromise on subwoofer placement (and usually on interior volume for the sub).

Should add currently am running a HK AVR340

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I say here's a project for Andrew.
Take a M100 cabinet increase the size to the width of the EP400 box.
throw in a 8" EP400 driver, decrease the watts to say 250w. The cabinet box would be practically the same size as the area of the EP400. It also, doesn't need to drop to 18hz, something in the area of 27hz and at a level of 85db then it can drop off.
It would be a hybrid system, run in full range, no LFE.
it would have the internal three way cross over, except filtered to allow the 6.5" to smooth out the frequency , the subfilter would pick up around the 80 hz area and go to the internal sub amp.
Put a fancy typeset and call these Axiom Triton

While the difference between the M80 and M80HP is subtle it's the subtlty that you're missing/craving/wanted all along.
If you're looking for thundering bass get a sub. If you want M80 performance with a bit more reality, try the HP's.

edit: I asked Ian the same question (DSP or upgrade) and he confirmed the newer speaker will perform better/would be the better choice. Glad I listened....no pun intended but I am very happy with mine.

FWIW, Sometimes it's just a matter of trying a new positions with the current speakers...

Older Axiom designs - like the AX3 I traded in during the last anniversary meeting many of us attended in 2011 - had large woofers in the cabinets. Unpowered, but they had them within internally separate enclosures.

I can tell you my M80's are much better. The design you propose sounds like many on the market, including the Reference 3a Suprema, which was very expensive and probably the best loudspeaker at any price that I have heard.

Thanks BRWSAW
I will try moving them around a bit next week when the new-to-me pre/pro arrives.
I don't want thundering bass, just a bit more umpth

Hmmm
now that the costs of the M80 and M100 are on par with other great brands this could be a next step for Axiom

The bigger question should be, has Axiom's prices simply shot up? or has those other brands fallen? Tie that to the second question about quality level between all the brands.

I don't know what other Canadian brands are doing, but many others out there from the USA & Europe have basically sent all (or most) of their manufacturing off-shore to you know where. While Axiom does build some of their parts over there, much of the process still employs Canadians over here. Unfortunately, manufacturing in Canada often costs more than elsewhere - a distinct disadvantage even with a favourable exchange rate.

I prefer to have my stuff built here, although it is harder to find anymore. Recently it was a factor in our choice of a new car for my daughter - 2015 RAV4 - built in Canada. Unfortunately, the Canadian Corolla plant is moving to Mexico because it is simply cheaper there.

Acquiring one of the darling speaker brands over at AVS seems to be on perpetual hold waiting for product that often is on a slow boat from China...

TAM

Too bad about Canadian Corollas. They have been making them in Canada for 25 years. I have had 2 of them.

For the automotive industry Mexico is just becoming another China. The average auto worker in Mexico earns between $4-5.00/hr., with benefits $8.00. How do you possibly compete with that and really do we even want to? Ultimately, all this is doing is driving down the standard of living for the middle class in North America.

They have gone up quite a bit, the past few years. maybe, the other brands haven't increased there prices. I don't know but there use to be quite a difference.
Axiom is still a great product, just where they are priced now is in the same ball park as a lot of other. Now when your looking at a $1800 speaker you have options. Before there was a big enough difference that they others weren't worth the extra dollars.

But, yeh, like the way of MK speakers, they sourced out to China, China made cheap knock offs and pirated there speakers.

Just get the regular M80's and an EP 500. Don't believe the naysayers. I have two EP500's, the 'regular' M80's and a VP160 in my HT room, and it's the same size as yours. 12' X 18'. All are V4's. The sealed EP500's are great for music, as well as movies.

Would having this DSP be the same as running ARC, or Audessey ?

Hi TroyD,

Systems like ARC or Audessey change the broadband amplitude response of the speaker to try and hit a target response curve measured in your room. We do not think this is a good idea above 300 Hz because, with properly designed speakers, the odds are very high it will actually downgrade the sound quality. The DSP that comes with the LFR series is making the Sound Power Curve and the Listening Window Curve relate to each other in perfect harmony in an anechoic environment. This translates into an enveloping soundstage in your room that is uniquely seductive.

Thanks for the response Ian.

So, then basically I might find by having the DSP would be better sounding, than if I were to run ARC or Audessy.

My current setup Anthem AVM30 Pro/Pro stops short of the ARC calibration.
I have the M80v3 and VP180v3 ?

So, would this smooth out the bottom end a bit better. If I look at the specs. between 40 and 60 on the M80 look a smoother. Is this the same as linear ?

Got the VP180 today. Love it so far