Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners No sub to EP500 results.

I had posted a few weeks back asking if a sub was needed for a guy who well doesn't care for the boom boom and wondered if a sub was even needed with two M80's and VP180 center that I was quite satisfied with. My intention was well it better be good, 1,400 dollars good or this is going back.

Well needless to say all the advice everyone gave me was correct, i almost don't even know the sub exists but the depth of sound coming from my movie soundtracks has increased. In fact after I ran the calibration with it set to half power my first intention was to turn it down expecting to get calls from the neighbor but as it turns out it was perfect just as is. Next was playing with the crossover. I set the EP500 to 180hz so as to not interfere with the Pioneer calibration and tested 120, 100, 80, 50 and 40hz with all speakers set to small. I ended up settling at 80hz because even though the M80s had no problem going lower the EP500 just produced a better smoother punchier base in that range, even at 100hz it sounded just as good to me with the EP500 playing that high.

Of course I do wonder if the EP350 would have been just as good of an experience at a lot less money but damn the EP500 just looks so good so that's worth something.

So if anyone is on the fence who hates hearing the honda civic with a 1000w sub rolling down the street this is truly the opposite of that.

No. The EP350 is ported where the EP500 is sealed. That gives it the very tight base that you were talking about.

Movies and music without a sub is like pancakes without syrup.

Enjoy your syrup sir

Spoken like a true Canadian!

My buddy couldn't get at his trees this year due to too much snow. No home made syrup for me. I'm very sad.

Oh that is a true sorrow.
I bought some birch syrup a few weeks ago. More expensive than maple syrup (far less vendors) but not a bad alternative.
Considering how many birch trees exist in this country, it should become another industry. It's much better known up in the Yukon.

Interesting. How does the flavor compare?

If you haven't tried birch syrup, give it a go. It is way more expensive, but when you're way up in the Yukon, maple trees are harder to find.
The birch syrup is similar to a maple dark amber. It has a heavier more wild flavour. It is not uncommon for an addition of fructose or sucrose to the final product to ensure the sugar quantity is sufficient so that the syrup is not bitter. I've found it makes for a great base for bbq sauces and basting.
Awesome on salmon. I have added it to mustard base bbq sauces for ribs as well.

Some info here:
http://moosemeadowsfarm.ca/sugaring-off-...402770996093750

We've tried this one.
http://www.rockylakebirch.com/birchsyrups.html

Well, so far, I can't find it locally. Perhaps I'll order some.

Thread derailed!! In a most Canadian fashion.

I went to a few websites and some of them listed locations for which they retail their product. That's how i found a shop locally which carries it. Probably alot cheaper to buy direct if you can though. I think we paid about $24 for a 750mL bottle when i can get maple syrup for about $14 for 1L.

Can I put the syrup on my EP500?

Only if you want your cats stuck to it.

Ahh the Bacon, don't forget the bacon

I am wondering.. would you go with a pair of EP500's or just a single EP800?

On the plus side, a pair of EP500's will probably give you a better or more even spread of sound. As the units are smaller, they gain the WAF as you can decordate/(hide) it into the room far more easier.

On the other side, the EP800 does do 12hz. Now, I know that the super deep base is more of a visceral thing and not something you get in listening to music. But in some of the movies, getting that supper deep base might be rather cool.

Pair 500s for sure. Just wait. You'll be happy with your size room.

You will dig 3-4 hz lower than 18hz when paired in room. Similar paired subs were tested at HTshack flat to 9hz at 90db. 18hz is where mine start to make noise. Below that is just tactile gravy.

I don't know if it's a case of buyers remorse or what. I am really agonizing over the decision to order the EP500's. I am sure that they will sound good. I really can't appreciate what or how much they will bring to the table until I get them I guess. But it is quite a bit of money.

When I got the M80 speakers, they were really exceptional. I later after listening and talking with others traded them in for the LFR1100. I never had them side by side so I can't tell if one of them sounded better than the other. I am sure there was an improvement but then again, is it just psyco-acoustics were i spent more so they must be better.

I am well in driving distance to visit Axiom. I am wondering if it is worth the trip up and see if I can do a blind listening test for the M80 vs LFR1100 and with/without the EP500 in the mix.

How much does adding a sub improve the sound?

Craigsub - You have the M100 and M50 and an EP800. I know this is not part of your listening test, but I'd love to hear you thoughts of the M100 vs M50 with the big EP800 running with both of them. Does the big sub kill of any sound gain the larger M100 has over the M50??

I need to get this worry under control about spending the cash on the subs.

I have not heard Axiom subs. I owned paired polk psw10s. Then "upgraded" to a velodyne eq-max 12 and finally ended up with paired svs sb12-nsd subs. (currently called sb-2000.) Enter the room lock era. I cant see any upgraditis happening anymore.

Even the paired polks were a noticable improvement in the bass dept over running my towers full range. If you get the 500s set up properly you should attain the "super speaker" experience Craig mentioned.

Dont sweat it Matt. Room lock awaits you. Whats that? You'll see.....

"I am well in driving distance to visit Axiom. I am wondering if it is worth the trip up and see if I can do a blind listening test for the M80 vs LFR1100 and with/without the EP500 in the mix."

Absolutely go and visit Axiom. This is a big investment and you'll put your mind at ease whatever you decide. Ian and Co are wonderfull hosts and you can tour the facility. We won't even mention the scenery in the area...

I haven't heard the M50 but I know that an M22 with a sub is not the same as an M80 - not even close! Whether you have an M80, M100, LFR100 or Model T, a sub is a whole new experience.

Though I have an ep500, I haven't done the listening tests that would help me answer your questions from my own experience. From my reading on audio, I've concluded that (1) everyone needs a sub, (2) several moderate quality subs of varying types in various positions are better than one big sub. Accordingly, I have 3 lesser subs, now, and since my ep500 is ailing a bit, I've just decided to retire her.

I am not sure what your conclusion ware there? Are you saying that an M22 with a decent sub is far better than an M80?? I would tend to agree with you there.

The real question is:

What is better: M22 with a Sub or M80 with a Sub or M100 with a Sub?

Or to they work out to being about the same as the decent sub takes over all the 200hz and lower frequencies making the M80 and M100 lower frequencies rather redundant?

Or does the decent sub supplement the lower frequencies of these larger speakers and give you something more than a decent sub alone can give for the 200hz and below.

I should have been more clear. In my room, for music, an M80v2 pair without a sub is substantially better than an M22v2 pair with an EP600v2. Sub or no sub, the M22v2 sounded too thin and lacked presence compared to the M80v2. For movies, I could live with the M22 with a sub because I am less fussy about audio quality when it comes to movies.

I can't speak for the M100 because I've never heard it. However, my M80v2 pair, at any practical volume, is far better with my EP600v2 (and other subs I've tried) than without.

I'm sure glad that I can buy stuff & on the most part be most happy with my purchases. This continual 'second guessing' & 'buyers' remorse' syndrome thankfully just isn't part of my makeup.

Striving for the next few of percent of performance is not only expensive but becomes a frustrating exercise in 'diminishing returns' as the small so-called 'improvement' is often not realized or hardly audible.

I see it all the time in the posts of others in the various forums that I frequent where a supposed 'upgrade' really hasn't happened to their satisfaction - on it goes again & again. I get tired just thinking about it, ha!!

BTW - as I've stated numerous times, my M22V4s & twin EP-800V3s are superb for both music & HT. I feel absolutely no need for towers of any kind...

TAM

That's right...be happy with what you've got. Don't you dare move M80s into that room because then you'll get upgraditis :-).

Old age cures one from ever wanting to unnecessarily move heavy items - especially to other rooms.

My EP-800s (110 Lbs each) are sitting right where we (my wife & I) originally placed them. They work just fine where they are, flanking the M22s & screen...

TAM

Wise words from TAM. "Post-Consumer Anxiety" is the phrase my wife has coined. Sadly, I'm sometimes afflicted.

Ha!! That's great!

Another 'syndrome' that our governments will dream up to establish more social programs to help the 'afflicted' & 'most vulnerable'...

TAM

I found all this out back in the day when I use to buy speakers from a dealer. I have always recommended to the potential buyer that if they insist on buying from a retailer, make sure that prior to committing to the purchase they can try them out at home in their set-up. If the retailer doesn't allow it, move on.

I don't know how many times in the past that I listened to speakers in the store thinking that these would be an upgrade only to find out when I listened to them in my environment ultimately determining they really weren't much of an upgrade, returning them and thinking my existing set-up was pretty good after all!

Matt -- I understand & sympathize with your comments. I don't think your mind will be settled until you hear this for yourself. If you are within a short day-trip of Dwight, and if Ian & Co. are indeed willing to host you, then you should just go. it is geographic luxury & you should take advantage.

Obviously, it is good to solicit opinions. Craig will have some good things to say & has already been clear that the ep800 (not so dissimilar from a stacked ep500 pair) elevates his m100s (not so dissimilar from your LFRs) into a new territory. The other side of the coin is the question of whether a full range tower is overkill when a sub is integrated. There are apparently conflicting suggestions from reliable first-person experiences here. My thought is that they are probably both right, and that the statements are more complementary than contradictory. Neils Bohr said "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." Acoustics is not so different from quantum mechanics, as it turns out. I don't have a shred of doubt that TAM's setup with the m22's and ep800s sounds phenomenal ... and I don't mean "to him" or "until you experience something else" or any other caveat or disqualifier whatsoever. I also accept Mojo's experience that a (near) full range tower is not necessarily equivalent in all regards to a bookshelf plus sub (and likewise that a sub enhances the tower as well). Its just hard to make decisions with limited and second-hand information, even from reliable sources. So, if you can readily go to Dwight, do that! Or, do what the rest of us have to do, which is make the best call we can based on product stats and first-hand suggestions and our own biases and preferences (both logical and illogical, with regards to perceptions of performance, aesthetics, budget, design philosophy, practicalities of the space, etc. etc.) and then evaluate in your own setting later.

My personal advice on your LFRs: Don't look back. The omnipolar design and the associated technology & engineering of the DSP is what you paid for there. Out of my range, but I don't question that it is a phenomenal system with its own benefits. You have raved about the sound already, and they are paid for, so stick with that as a constant. The subwoofer question is separate. There are some advantages to the Axiom subs that are seldom discussed. The analog toroidal power supply is a big one. They were also one of the first, if I understand correctly, to do a DSP implementation. I have great confidence in the engineering experience that Ian and Andrew bring to the table, and am fully persuaded that they make independent, educated, information-based design decisions. Craig's praise of ep800 should not be taken lightly. I'll be following your conclusions with interest.

I'm very much at peace with my own m80+ep500 decision, to the extent that any decision can be made prior to direct experience. I am looking forward to some real listening soon ... at some level, nothing up to that point really matters. After that, perhaps I can add less speculation, and more informed comments.

enjoy!

"I am looking forward to some real listening soon ... at some level, nothing up to that point really matters."

Oh come on! You of all people know that nothing really matters because there is no matter. The experience you call "real listening" is nothing of the sort and will get you no closer to reality. Give it up! You, like me, are nothing but Hermitian conjugates acting on the Fock space.

I don't think that there is any chance that the LFRs are heading back to Axiom for a trade or to be sold. They are here to stay. I also don't doubt that adding the subs will help improve the sound. By how much is the ultimate question. The point of diminishing return was brought up and I think really applies here considering that I have spent over $4.3k on the front speakers, and about to spend another $2.5k on a pair of subs. One would look towards that cost and sure as heck would like to say I hope there is a measurable improvement in the quality of sound that you are getting to justify that expense.

I will take the enviable side that money is just pieces of paper, and I am willing to trade them for a big smile on my face for the remaining days I have on this earth.

I know that I am one of those people who suffers from buyers remorse all the time. Second guess everything that I do as I don't want to waste. I'd prefer the optimal balance.

Matt -- I understand completely. Looking forward to following your conclusions. Cheers --