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Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412701 06/12/15 01:11 AM
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TAM -- Thanks for the link to Dr. Toole's talk. I finally had a chance to watch it today. Very interesting & I learned several things. I was looking forward to his comments "if there is time" on how to deal with room coloration in the low frequency range, but apparently there wasn't. Bass traps, I would guess, but it would have been nice to hear his take.

On a side note, my copy of Pohlman and Everest arrived, but no time to dig in yet.

Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412780 06/13/15 11:40 PM
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I did some experimenting with Audyssey this afternoon. I got my trusty RS Analogue SPL Meter out, turned Off Audyssey & played the Denon AVR Test Tones. I set all of the levels at 75 Db at my MLP using the meter vertically. As contrasted to the LF that was right on 75 Dbs, the CC & RF Channels had to come up a couple of DBs & the Surrounds even a bit more. Subs were OK & were nicely shaking things.

I then played in Surround Mode one of my favourite concerts at -15 Db (peaking at 90 Dbs at my MLP) - Eric Clapton & Steve Winwood 'Live in Madison Square Garden' DVD.

I repeatedly cycled through the various Audyssey modes & concluded that whenever it was ON, it added some brightness to the overall sound. It was quite apparent that when Winwood was speaking in an interview between tracks that his 'S'es were more prominent. When looking at the EQ graphs, I found that Audyssey indeed had added some higher end boost to my room. Kinda dispels that notion that Axioms are overly bright, ha!

So as others have recommended, Audyssey is OFF, at least for now. Without it, there is a smoother presentation for music; however, I will have to test it out on a movie or two to see how that sounds...

TAM

Last edited by exlabdriver; 06/13/15 11:43 PM.
Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412781 06/14/15 01:58 AM
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Tom ,

FWIW which is probably not much, I have never really found any benefit from using Audyssey. People have posted different methods for running Audyssey along with reason's why they thought it was better and I have tried them all without much success. I have since moved to separates and my Pre/Pro has Dirac Live full and I have found it to be a nice improvement. Nothing ground breaking , but the cohesiveness during a movie is much improved. I say if it sounds better to the user then they should use it but if not don't feel as though you have to use RC just because its there.


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What others think of me is none of my business.
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Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412791 06/14/15 05:20 PM
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Every room I have been in over the last 8 years, from over-damped, under-damped to everything in between, and speakers of all types, Audyssey served to "clean up" the sound. Everyone who has listened with and without Audyssey in those rooms is in agreement. Now that's not to say there may not be any venues where Audyssey messes things up; I just have not experienced them and neither have the people I know.

For those of you that may remember, bass and mid-bass was a huge problem in my basement space. I spent over a year moving my sub around, trying different settings, etc. Nothing worked in my "bright" space. In 2009, we renovated upstairs. We moved some stuff downstairs temporarily to get it out of the way. My room was no longer bright and I took the opportunity to experiment with the bass. I became so frustrated, I just gave up. For many years I listened like that. Then I got an Onk with XT32 because my 2000-vintage Denon died. Even though I heard the benefits of Audyssey at other venues, I didn't hold out much hope. What do you know? It worked! The only fiddling I had to do was to change the setting from "Music" mode to "Movie" mode. I find "Music" mode exaggerates the high end. When I turn on Audyssey in my space, the clarity is like night and day - no critical listening required.

So I am finally very happy with my bass and mid-bass and I owe it to Audyssey. If I was a speaker designer though, I might feel upset. If I was pulling my hair out taking thousands of curves and endlessly trying to optimize a speaker, only to have some neophyte come along and change its response through the flick of a switch, I might not feel very good. On the other hand, my well-designed speaker should sound better than a poorly designed one with Audyssey engaged.

I say it's whatever sounds good to you. Reality in audio is "your" reality as a listener. The more you listen, the more you start to understand which reality is best. Every time someone hears my M80s or my Audiobytes, they instantly know what they are missing with their systems. Some have purchased Axiom products as a result. Others couldn't for various reasons. Those same people that couldn't experience Axiom before, have been given the opportunity through AxiomAir. This is what I personally find very moving about this new platform.


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Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412793 06/14/15 07:11 PM
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My Audyssey did not screw things up in my room, it just made the overall sound slightly brighter which I suppose could be thought of 'cleaning up' the sound.

I really had to work at it to find a difference in the music material & only after repeating the Winwood interview numerous times that I concluded that the little bit more brightness was there but really not required IMO. My Axiom system seems to do quite well in my room without frequency EQ.

I still believe that Audyssey is fabulous technology that would have been nice to have 30 or 40 years ago when I started playing around with this stuff. There is no doubt that it can help smooth out some rooms that are difficult & I would not dismiss it as a viable tool...

TAM

Last edited by exlabdriver; 06/14/15 07:12 PM.
Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412794 06/14/15 07:59 PM
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What I found interesting (one thing of many) in the talk was the suggestion (which makes decent sense) that the "family of curves" will predict the in-room response with very high correlation for a very wide variety of listening venues when confining to the higher frequencies. The room modes, on the other hand, which dominate at lower frequencies, are highly variable and cannot be predicted except on a case-by-case basis. This adds some insight into Ian's comments that they would prefer to leave the higher frequencies pristine, out of the speaker.

Of course, one cannot really deal with room modes with an equalizer anyway (as Andrew has emphasized), since they are highly dependent upon location. A danger seems to be that one would try to "fix" an isolated local null that the microphone picks up, which is caused not by the speaker or by the sub but by the room. Then, the effect is corrected globally in the EQ, causing the opposite error at most local listening positions.

Dr. Toole's suggestion seems to be, moreover, that some of these very local interference effects are psycho-acoustically innocuous to human listeners, and that the cure can be worse than the disease. I suspect that this is a very real, correct, and practical concern. Especially at high frequency, any local interference effects will exist within a very confined region and making some room-wide compensation for artifacts picked up a one specific point would be absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Without a doubt, it seems that starting with speakers that have a flat frequency response and a smooth transition for the directivity (this is manifest by proxy in the gently / smoothly down-sloped sound power curve, if I understand) is essential. Additionally, the flatness of that curve should be maintained over a wide dynamic range, such that highly dynamic passages are not artificially subdued (compressed) in certain frequency ranges. This is what I interpret as "linearity" (increases in signal strength are manifest proportionally in output strength at "all" master volume levels and frequencies), and the point of the HP woofers. There are just some problems that start at the source, and cannot be corrected downstream. It would seem that quality speaker components and intelligent human engineers are not in danger of being made redundant any time soon.

On the other hand, there are certainly colorations that a room will induce, and to the extent that they are universal/global in origin (or can at least be sensibly averaged over), it also makes good sense that a carefully calibrated EQ could help out quite a bit. There is no shortage of user testimonial that the high end Audyssey filters (XT32 and Sub EQ for example) do quite substantially and very positively impact the delivered in-room experience. It should be emphasized that these systems sample quite a few points to get their suggestion for the global calibration, and are much less sensitive to local dips and interference coincidences than simpler approaches. I'm looking forward to playing around with it when my system is finally set up.

DSQ

Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412811 06/15/15 05:21 PM
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We ran the first 'Iron Man' Blu Ray at -10 Db with Audyssey OFF.

This action movie with a very dynamic soundtrack sounded just fine without any EQ...

TAM

Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412813 06/15/15 05:59 PM
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As many of you know, I have a pretty decent amount of acoustical treatments in my room. Every time I added more in the right areas, my sound became more crisp and clear (not in pitch, but in clarity). This included what seems to be a full range from highs down to LFE from the subs.

However, it wasn't until I turned ON Audyssey that things started to really shine, and in an even better way.

Dialog is much easier to hear (which was my main goal since my wife has a hard time hearing spoken words over the soundtrack and effects), and small details that were lost before we now able to be heard.

Maybe it is a different flavor and vintage of Audyssey (I have 3.5 year old MultEQ XT), but more than likely it is the room and our hearing of things in a room.

Even with EQ, some things just can't be fixed electronically, or some things are incorrectly interpreted by the processor (Audyssey in this case) and negative effects happen.

That is why they have an on/off switch for this stuff. TAM says that in his space, with his speakers, and his ears, that it gets to bright. In my space, with my speakers, and my ears, it sounds good and not bright, not painful, but with a bit more clarity and "impact." Who is right? We both are.

Having come from Pioneer Elite's MCACC to Audyssey MultEQ XT, I know that a NEED Audyssey in my next receiver too. Maybe it will even be XT32. Others may not find that value.


Farewell - June 4, 2020
Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
exlabdriver #412815 06/15/15 06:47 PM
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My Audyssey is the MultEQ XT as well.

I don't know if my Audyssey was making my room 'too bright' - it was brighter, but subtly. As I stated, in actual listening to music the difference was difficult to ascertain; however, speech recorded in a quiet studio was a little brighter.

Actually, either ON or OFF works just fine in my room...

TAM

Last edited by exlabdriver; 06/15/15 06:49 PM.
Re: Dr Floyd Toole's Talk at Mcgill University
DrStrangeQuark #412852 06/16/15 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted By DrStrangeQuark
...
Of course, one cannot really deal with room modes with an equalizer anyway (as Andrew has emphasized), since they are highly dependent upon location...

That very much depends. I was able to clean up a huge 15db peak at 56Hz that appeared almost everywhere in my room. The suck out at 72 Hz was a lost cause.

I would agree on localized peaks and nulls though.


Fred

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