Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Advice needed: AMP/CD player for Axiom M22?

Just bought 1 pair of Axiom M22 V4 and look to setting up a pure and budget music system with an Integrated Amp and CD player. Old school, right?

Any suggestions on which AMP to go? NAD D 3020 or Marantz PM 6005 (with 5005 CD player).

Another question: do I need to add a sub? If so, how big?

Any response is appreciated.

I think they both look interesting. Very compact.
Something i would have loved in my university days. A pair of M22s with a small sub and those int amps?

Instead i had housemates who bought speakers out of the back of white trucks. I'll give them this; they were loud.

Sub suggestions sure; if you want more bass. You can always test out the M22s first by themselves and if you want to 'feel' a bit more sound, make the low end have more oomph, pickup a sub.
How large?
Depends on your uses.
Based on the amp choices, you seem to be aiming for compact so in that sense, i wouldn't get anything larger than the EP350 (of Axiom selections that is as there are lots of other brands out there).

I started my Axiom journey with M2's and a small Yamaha sub and they sounded really good together. IMHO adding a sub will really step things up for you, and I find it add realism to the music experience. Depending on the size of your room and listening levels an 8in and at most a 10 inch sub should do the trick. For music you don't want to over do it, just enhance .

Thanks guys.

For a 2 kids' dad, sparing some budget for music may be similar than a colleague student spending all the allowance:)

So an amplifier with a sub output is a must?

By the way, what would be the difference between bookshelf speakers + sub and floor standing speakers?

I personally haven't met a floor stander that can put out bass like a dedicated sub. You can save floor space since the sub can be put somewhere away from the main speakers. Also you can move the sub to enhance bass performance something you cant do with towers. Most subs have a high level input and you can take your signal off the receiver from the B speaker output or jack into the A speaker output at the rear of a speaker. All subs I have used have a crossover built in. Since the M22 doesn't do much below 60 hz you should not have to worry about ending up with double bass.

Amp with a sub output would at least give you a little future proofing or option proofing.

I ultimately went with floorstanding because overall the bigger the speaker, the bigger the sound. With increasing room size, and depending the playback volume you prefer, a larger speaker might be preferred. The M22s sounded thin to me, but after getting the M60s instead, i had the sound volume i wanted with an eye to the future that we would build a larger media room at some point as well.

However, starting small is a good place to start. M22s and sub would be that excellent beginning.
Or, you could always venture the M50s, though i prefer the 3-way driver design; i feel it present more clarity.

Additional note, to save on cash but still get quality, you can always look for used audio gear as well, either at the Axiom outlet store or sites like Audiogon and Canuck Audio Mart.

Great education on sub. I certainly lack the knowledge of sub which I didn't know much when I set my first system 15 years ago.j

I am not a fan for movies so EP125 or EP175 would just do fine for me I guess.

Then I could go with any amps without worrying about the bass.

I would opt for the EP175. A sub too small is really too small.
The 125 might be best for a computer office setup or the college tv room IMO.

The NAD amp you had described has a Sub output.
http://nadelectronics.com/products/digital-music/D-3020-Hybrid-Digital-Amplifier

The Marantz does not appear to have one.
http://ca.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/...roductId=PM6005

Having been wondering and searching for answers for days but really you addressed my concerns today. Huge thanks:)

Well someone had to do it.
JohnK and Peter seem to be on sabbatical, Ken is obsessed with Coke and at least two forum members may be having connectivity issues if they haven't yet purchased new routers.
Poor Socket has had to take up the reigns!

lol
have fun shopping/dreaming!

If you want a little monster sub for music, the EP400 is outstanding. I have a pair coupled with a pair of M2s; however, 1 unit would be more than enough if the room isn't overly large.

Unfortunately, it is not a budget sub, but it sounds so good....

TAM

My little one is close to 1 year old and the sub option has been held for now by my wife. The last thing we want is to damage my daughter's hearing. That is one of the reasons to start with the bookshelf speakers.

Down the road, floor standing speakers would certainly make sense then M22 will be moved to either bedroom or rear.

M22s can damage your daughter's hearing all by themselves.

The trick is to use the Volume Control wisely, which is difficult at times, ha!!

TAM

You are absolutely right. It is hard to enjoy the music when the speakers are whistling.

Pretty well any amp will make M22 shine, except cheapo amps.
A tube or robust amp is the best. I started with a mid range Onkyo TXNR525 was great. Up graded to a Tascam PA-R200 with THX 2 and toroidial transformers. and it was noticeable a lot more detail to the point of " I never heard that before".

The sub and M22 is a must they are great alone, but my M3s have more BASS without a sub than my M22s. If possible highly recommend one.

Is there a best match 2 channel AMP with M22?

Looking at Marantz PM 6005 and NAD D 3020/C326 now.Open to any other suggestions.

Rock , have a look at Emotiva they have some really great sounding gear. I have an XMC-1 pre/pro and I love it.

Best match can be easily defined by usually two things:
a) does it have the features you want or need?
b) does it have sufficient specs re: power, capacitance, etc. for your needs?

The second item means less since you can play any speaker within the limits of the amp. Not all people are satisfied with 75 decibels at 10 feet away though (as an example) and as such, you have to consider beefier amps and larger speakers.

Rock, welcome to Axiom. Since you're aiming for a "budget" system, an integrated amplifier such as the two you've mentioned isn't the way to go. These days multi-channel receivers are the cost-effective option, even if limited to only two channel use(disregarding the possibility of future expansion to better enjoy music in surround mode). I'd suggest that you consider one of the excellent quality factory refurbished receivers available(if you're in the U.S.)from Accessories4less in the $200-$300 range, such as the Denon E400.

Yes, my experience has been that although the M22s have good bass by themselves, adequate for most music, adding a sub is desirable, and this is another reason to consider an HT receiver. A crossover is necessary to best blend the M22s and sub, and since subs have no internal full crossover it's highly desirable to have this done by the amplifying device. Neither of the units you mention has a sub output and other circuitry with this capability(the sub out on the NAD is simply a line level pre-amp).

I'll also note that you're wise to consider possible hearing damage. Above the low bass(handled by the sub if present) speaker enclosure size has no necessary relationship to sound level capability and speakers such as the M22 or smaller can easily reach damaging levels if proper care isn't taken.

I would partially tend to agree with John in that an inexpensive AVR will get you more features, bang for your buck.
However, if the int-amp is all you want with no huge use for AVR features, or plans to use those features in the future (such as required for movie Dolby Digital 5.1, etc.) then the int-amp will do just fine.
I use one for my office system since i don't need all those AVR extras and although the one i have cost a bit more, it doesn't take up a 30 lb weight of space either (and looks a world better than black).

I don't know the prices of the two int-amps compared to the Denon that John presented though. The AVR may still be more cost efficient.

Thanks guys for the response.

I just bought NAD 356BEE and Marantz CD 6005 paired with the M22s. My room is 9*18 and one side wall and front wall with openings. Right now I set the speakers with Cardas placement and it works fine. The bass is thin so a sub may be needed later on.
Any suggestions to improve the set up? Is Cardas placement good for my room?

Regarding AMP, I read an article to use AV receiver for surrounding and sub, but int-amp for front/main speakers. By doing so, you could enjoy the pure music while has the option to get home theater set. That could my my future path?

Give yourself some time to get used to the sound of the M22s as well. I loved their clarity when i first heard them. Compared to the boomy speakers i had before, it was an unusual adjustment.


The "Cardas" setup is based on the golden ratio idea. I have used the golden ratio as a good starting point, but often many rooms don't have the easy dimensions to accommodate placement according to the calculations so one may need to resign themselves to a tradeoff.

I've found you have a great stereo image when you can close your eyes and the sound image comes from directly in front of you even though the two speakers are to the left and the right of your sitting location. Of course, to get a wide stereo sound (the width of the 'soundstage') takes tinkering and ultimately not every seat in the room may have the best stereo image.


Avoid this nonsense.
An int-amp won't produce any better quality sound than an AVR.
Buy the unit appropriate to the features you want.
If you are looking to expand to surround channels in the future, you could consider selling the int-amp used (see Canuck AudioMart or Audiogon for example), and pickup an AVR at that time.
Or use the int-amp in another room, perhaps the garage, man cave or bedroom.
It gives you another excuse to buy another speaker setup!

LOL, it is definitely another good reason to buy new speakers!

I thought AVR amplifier split the same amount money to 6 channels instead of 2. So I am supposed to get better performance when spending the same bucks. That is not the case?

I don't know about 'money', but 'power' is split across more channels in an AVR. However the power is split also between two channels in the int-amp unless it is a dual monoblock design (unlikely).
Both these units usually only have a single power supply.

With the AVR, you can run all your speakers off of one power supply no problem, or use the pre-outs to setup an external amp for perhaps the two main speakers, and still run the surrounds from the AVR. This would offload some power from the AVR to the external amp.

I've been running an Onkyo 797 for some time now in our media room. It very sufficiently powers a 5.1 system in a 15 x 18' room.

From my short stint into the high end realm (my trip finished quickly when the money ran out) I realized that there are many performance factors which weigh in ahead of an amp's importance. The bottleneck in most systems will not be the amplification. Not to say spend a few hundred bucks only and you've got it made.

You ended up just fine where you spent your money IMO. Enjoy your new amp and CD player (I used to own the CD6004 and it was great.)

To Chesseroo, I meant materials made for channels but am impressed with your knowledge.

To Serenity Now: I don't have a big budget and right now I like what I hear, especially the clarity and imaging. you are right, the placement of speakers, reflection of surrounding environment,CD quality, etc. are also largely impacting what I hear.

I originally went with a Marantz 6002 with my M22s and was not happy with the sound. It was "thin" and underpowered, and this was in a 14x13 foot room. After posting here, Alan (from Axiom, who answered a lot of technical question back then) suggested that the M22 "likes power" and might be better served with a stronger amp. I wound up returning it for a Yamaha 673 and was *much* happier with the sound. I really don't know whether it was the added power or that I just liked the sound of the Yamaha better, but it definitely sounded better.

I'll add that I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the return except that the Marantz was not processing DLNA from my NAS, and that was a deal-breaker as all my music (flacs) was on the NAS. But I'm really glad I did. I know you said you already bought the Marantz, but it might be worth getting something in to compare it with.

I picked up a used Harman Kardon AVR 220 for $100. I use it as a 2 channel receiver for a pair of M22Tis with a little Velodyne DSP sub. I was very surprised at the excellent sound quality that this HK puts out. Sounds great with the M22s!

I have a 2 channel in the exercise room, an Integra DTM 5.3 stereo receiver which I found on Craigslist ($60 no volume knob, found a knob), a pair of Dahlquist M905s and a Velodyne DSP subwoofer. This is the best sounding system in my house.

Find a good used receiver, save a boat load of money, get terrific sound quality and be happy.

M22s are terrific speakers when assisted by a good, clean, fast sub.

I ordered a pair of M100 V4s, cherry B stock (the current listing should say "sold") and an Odyssey Khartago amplifier. I hope this system sounds as good as the $120 system in my work out room (not counting subwoofer).

correction - Harman Kardon AVR 445 not 220