Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners cd player

Does anyone here have any recommendations on a single disc CD player. I am NOT looking for a SACD or DVD-A unit. Have heard the Cambridge Audio 300SE, but it is no longer available, and the Azur has nothing written on it yet. I am looking to spend around 500.00 US. Thanks all

I have a NAD 541i and I've been very happy with it. Plus you can get some really good deals on it these days. Check http://www.saturdayaudio.com and see if they have any in stock. They tend to have the best prices.

I've never heard one, but I've heard nothing but raves about this player. I'd love to hear one myself some time.

Ahhhh!

No, only "Ah!"

I dont' buy it:

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harsh, analytical, electronic sound...

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Sounds like cd player snake oil to me. I was goign to buy this player, but I let my regular digital one "break in" first. That's all the creator of this player needed to do...

Frankly it doesn't make any sense to me. Why, in an age when everyone is trying desparately to keep the "digital accuracy" of their signal and prevent "analog signal loss," would we want to start with an analog cd player. And don't give me the whole "it sounds warmer, less harsh," crap. You are fooling yourself. If you like that sound, change the EQ on your receiver.

Capn,

The thing with this player is that it uses tubes in its output stage. It would be dumb, in my opinion, to buy this player and use its digital outputs.

So basically, this player saves you the need of buying a tube amp to get a tube sound.

Bunk, I say! Bunk, damnit!

I would tend to agree with you, but to people who prefer the sound of tubes to solid state, it may be a great player.

Yeah - what do I know. I'm really just talking out of my a$$. I can fully understand why people want to hear vinyl, especially they grew up on it, or feel that it is more intimate, organic, whatever. And I think that it is great if a CD player can be made that emulates a vinyl sound so that users don't have to buy a separate amp/receiver for their cd collection, etc.

But, what I don't buy is the rationale. The reviewer claimed that he was, somehow, "upgrading" the signal, in essence, to the more real sound of vinyl. Again, Bunk, I say! (a la professor Farnsworth)

I was always of the opinion that cd quality was superior in most respects (fidelity, clarity) to vinyl. I always thought that vinyl sounded muted, with unprecise bass and missing or scratchy highs, and boxy mids.

Don't get me wrong - I bet vinyl lovers think the player sounds great, but there's a reason why we all switched from vinyl to cd (and it wasn't necessarily the cost). It was the better sound. Come on, when was the last time that you listened to a cd and thought - you know, I can hear the 1's and 0's? I wish I had vinyl.

That's my rambling point.

"OOOH!!"
"No no...it's ERRRRRRR!! at the back of the throat"
"No...OOOOH!! as in suprise and alarm"

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Sounds like cd player snake oil to me.

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I'm the first to debunk a charlatan when I see one, but some people prefer a warm tube sound (much like some people prefer vinyl to CD or film to video)

I haven't thoroughly researched the topic - but it seems that the manufacturer buys up some other manufacturers' stock, replaces the solid state output stage with tubes, rebrands them and sells them. Not sure if this is legal (if in fact that's what he's doing).

Anyway, in the end, you should have a warmer sound (assuming you use the analog outs) at the expense of all the drawbacks of tubes (which we've been through a few times here already).

Bren R.

Hi,

Adding to what Bren mentioned, won't it be fun to use a device that generates a rich wash of harmonic distortion, AC hum & noise, and begins deteriorating the moment it's turned on?

I grew up building tube amplfiers for my father (and for myself) but it's horse-and-buggy technology best left and admired for what it did surprisingly well in the first half of the 20th century because there were no alternatives. If someone wants the nostalgia of watching those tube filaments glow orange on a cold winter night, fine, but building a tube CD player now is, at the least, eccentric if not nutty.

I think it was California Audio Labs had a hybrid CD player back in the late '80s and the tubes were visible through a little plexiglas window on the front panel, which was "cool" (actually, they were hot!).

Regards,

Thanks alot to all who took the time to reply,
spock, thanks for the link, I believe from what I've read I will probably give the NAD a go.

Mace, the Ah! player is a wondrous idea in which you pay a premium in order to obtain obsolescent technology and less accurate sound reproduction. There are plenty of modern players which would meet your needs, but why limit yourself to the inconvenience of a single-disc player? It's your choice, of course, but I'd never again seriously consider one.

Excellent choice mace. I say - Go NADs!

Alan writes:

"Adding to what Bren mentioned, won't it be fun to use a device that generates a rich wash of harmonic distortion, AC hum & noise, and begins deteriorating the moment it's turned on?"

Not to put too fine a point on the matter Alan, but are you sure you know what you're talking about? Have you ever listened to an Ah!? I know there're folks on this board who think all CD players are the same, but friends, unless you're hearing impaired, I can tell you that's not the case. The Ah! with standard tubes sounds (Philips Jan 6922 Military Grade NOS tubes) terrific. With upgraded Siemens E288CCs the sound is even better. With the upsampler, well, you're really in audiophile bliss if you can get over any fixed idea you may be stuck on that all CDP's sound the same.

Alan may not like the Ah! but there are many respectable reviewers out there who think the Ah! is something really special. Dick Olsher from Enjoy the Music.com, one of my favorite sites, thinks it "slays every other player I've heard to date in the under $3K price range. At its sub $1K asking price, its price/performance ratio is simply out of this world. The Super Tjoeb gets my vote for digital product of the year." TNT loves it. I've heard it and it is the best sounding CDP I've ever heard.

But hey, you guys are the experts. My ears must not be sensitive enough to hear the hum or the tubes degrading and silly me, what I thought sounded terrific was really just "a rich wash of harmonic distortion" and noise.

Must be the Axioms which make that poor thing sound as good as it does.

Ahh, but 2x6spds - no one's knocking the tube sound, just how it's used. I, for one, having played both guitar and bass through tube and S/S amps - I still own a Johnson tube PA built in Brandon, MB circa 1954... will admit they sound different - whether it's characterized as even-order distortion (by engineers) or warmth (by musicians).

As far as the production of sound is concerned, tube amps for musicians are a great idea, they add timbre (or character) to a pretty dead sounding instrument - after all, the best instruments in the world all create distortion to colour their sound - the vibrations set up inside the f-holes in a violin, for instance. Without adding something to an electric guitar or bass - it would sound a whole lot like a synthesizer.

But once you've captured that sound and you want to reproduce it, S/S electronics do it a lot cleaner - you're trying not to recolour the sound but to play it back as faithfully as possible (which is why most of us prefer flat-response loudspeaker designs).

And if you really enjoy the tube sound and want to avoid the pitfalls of tubes, they're doing incredible things with MOSFETs these days - Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistors (whew!), they sound like tubes - but baby, they ain't tubes!

Bren R.

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Not to put too fine a point on [it]

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Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet.
Build a little birdhouse in your soul.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nothing like a bit of They Might Be Giants to lighten a mood...

Strange too... I just happen to be talking to a friend in Istanbul (not Constantinople).

Ahh... college music... if anyone starts with the Dead Milkmen, though, I'm outta here.

Bren R.

College music? More like 7th grade music...

"BIG LIZARD IN MY BACKYARD, CANT AFFORD TO FEED IT ANYMORE"

that was 9th grade for me..

bigjohn

BrenR,

Nicely said. And I was just writing about MOSFETs for the upcoming Axiom AudioFile newsletter!

I don't resent anyone indulging tube gear--of course they sound different, and I have friends who woudn't dream of using anything but a tube amp with their electric guitars.

But if high fidelity and musical accuracy in sound reprodution is the goal, tube stuff isn't as linear or as faithful to reproducing the source. A tube fancier may prefer the sound over solid-state devices--and that's fine. But tubes introduce artifacts that are not present on the CD or the master tape.

Regards,

Alan, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm sure many folks like the distorted WAH WAH for their guitars, but there are some great tube amps out there whose sound quality is not characterized by distortion, and many reviewers who think them to be the best amps available.

I'm relieved that you don't resent the tube indulgence, but find your comments to be condescending. You may be the resident expert, but your opinion is your own. Just remember that Axiom speakers are tube friendly, and many folks with tube amps use Axioms - I know because I've auditioned them and recommended them.

Careful that you don't make tube people feel unwelcome here. BTW, you may want to disengage your opinion generator long enough to listen to a nice AH! CDP. Speaking from experience may actually be help with more worthwhile advice from our resident expert.

2x6,

I believe you're missing the point (again). The term distortion is used very loosely these days. Any alteration of the source signal can be called distortion. Tubes, as a consequence of their design, distort signals. To some, that distortion is desirable. To others, it is not.

It's that simple. Let's not get hung up on semantics, eh?

Again, 2x6spds - neither Alan (if I can speak for him) or I are against tubes being used for amplifier circuits, we've both only pointed out that the "warm" and "organic" sounds, while pleasing to some people's ears, technically are distortion, if you view a sine wave amplified by S/S electronics against one amplified through tubes, you'll see that the fundamental is more clearly defined through solid state electronics, and yes, it can be accurately visualized. Use a tone generator and an oscilloscope and you'll see.

On the recording side - the drawback to transistors (and to be balanced, they're not perfect either - there is no free ride) is the harmonic distortion that is developed when they're overdriven, it is odd-order distortion, which is non-musical, but under proper use, this should be minimized - but sometimes "Audio Engineers" don't pad mics on brass, jazz vocalists or percussion and it happens, but the technology can't be blamed for operator error.

The audio world has gone through some changes for the better in the last 10-15 years, loudspeaker response curves have become much flatter as the science comes of age. Ever noticed that receivers don't ship with 15 band graphic EQs anymore? The technology across the board is getting a lot better at faithful reproduction of source material.

As for alienating tube owners and Alan "shutting down his opinion generator" - the reason I and others are here is that the truth is debated, there are few "yes men" here. You like your sound, congratulations. But for myself, I'm not about to renounce the fact behind technology in order to make someone feel better about their decision.

Bren R.

Ay! Keep that gun away from my penguin!

Bren, that's a disturbing avatar. bleck.

ya'll just need to quit using all them big words..

if you like tube stuff, buy it!!

if you like digital stuff. buy it!!

with no offense meant toward anyone, it just cracks me up in here sometimes to read how aggresive people can get about defending their personal choices.. what everyone seems to forget is, they are exactly that, OUR OWN PERSONAL CHOICES.. were all different. now, i can see both sides of the coin in this argument. but i chose to stay out of it cause of a lack of personal experience. be that as it may..

i think everyone in here has a pretty good grasp of what they like, so lets all just be cool and dig the music.

i hate it when we fight like this..

so sayeth the shepherd, and so sayeth the flock!!

WELL GET THE FLOCK OUT OF HERE!!!

bigjohn

I see pmbuko, so, as the term is used on our forum, distortion is a good thing?

Look, Alan is entitled to his opinions, as is each of us. But before someone who is held out as our resident expert puts down a product or species of product (tube output CDP) I just think a bit of experience prior to pronouncement might be in order. Personally, I like the Ah! and think it's terrific. Of course, I'm no expert, that's just me.

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Bren, that's a disturbing avatar. bleck.

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And a stuffed bear looking at gay porn isn't?

Bren R.

"That's Mr. Bear to you."

-Mr. Bear

Sorry to get back on subject. ecost has got some refurb 5 disk CD players at substantial savings that ALSO act as progressive scan DVD players. They are the DVM 1815, 2815 and 4800. I got a 4800 last year (MSRP $1199) and it is a burly device with some serious DACS and great PQ for DVDs.

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Sorry to get back on subject.

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How dare you!

Wow, I blanked out for a minute there! What was I thinking? Has anyone seen any good whale related web sites lately?

As a matter of fact...


LOL

Not to drag up a dead thread but since I got into tubes and thus now having the ability to see things from a different perspective, I'd have to say, yes, there was a lot of condescension and assumptions in this thread. Comments like, well, if you're into hifi and accurate sound reproduction, then tubes aren't for you. Hifi? There is no clear definition of what Hifi is. My goodness. How about having a little respect for the vast majority of people that like tubes and say: "Why don't you try them out and compare to solid state?" instead of such quick dismissals. If you people can't read between the lines of Alan's comments, well, then...whatever. All I know is tubes aren't in the best interest of a speaker manufacturer trying to sell 5.1. Coincidence? We'll never know.

Secondly, there are the comments about how its a pain in the arse. Actually, owning a tube amp is quite easy these days due to auto biasing, no more need to have matching tubes, and other advancements.

Thirdly, many people think many cds sound like pure crap and tube colorization actually gets to the proper sound. Ask Metallica if they had actually intended for 'And Justice for All' to sound the way it does on cd. Most musicians will tell you cds suck and so does the sound of their music on cds. I think they have better ears than us.

Fourth, no, tubes do not degrade. They peak and they degrade. Part of the fun is then trying a new tube. Its a hobby, a way to pass time, fun. If "fun" or "hobby" was even in the mind of some of people who said things here, they would have never even saw fit to mention something like this. Maybe for some the extent of the hobby is buying gear and then leaving it sit for 7 years, but not for others.

Not to mention, ridiculous comments like: "I'm not even sure its legal". Its called OEM. The OEM has a formal relationship with the original manufacturer and customizes the original manufacturer's equipment, then resells it. Its a common practice many many different industries, particularly in the computer industry. I once worked for a company that made lunchmeat then sold it to a name brand. People eat this lunchmeat and have no idea who made it.

I wonder how many people have heard a good turntable setup? If so, I would be *very* interested to hear how they believe cds sound better. Let me know. End of rant.

>>But before someone who is held out as our resident expert puts down a product or species of product (tube output CDP) I just think a bit of experience prior to pronouncement might be in order.

Hold on for a minute there. You know Alan's background...

Given his years in the industry, what do you think the chances are that he has not had solid listening experience with good tube amps ?

I'm not saying you have to AGREE with him, of course (although IMO you are reading more into his words than he probably intended when writing them), just saying that "lack of experience" is not high on the list of reasons for saying what he did.

As the other posters are saying, I don't think Alan was saying "tube amps are no good" or even "tube amps are not better", just "remember that tube amps probably are less faithful to the original signal, even if the overall result can be more pleasing to our ears and brains in some cases".

I know 20 years ago the conventional wisdom was that SS equipment introduced far less distortion than tubes, but that the distortion was somehow more "evil" than the distortion introduced by tube amps. I guess distortion was the cholesterol of the 80s

I'm certainly not offended by any of the comments. I just think for balance and free speech, I'm going to offer a different view. 2X6 gets slammed here all the time, in this case, I happen to think he is right. To see his comments so readily dismissed is way off base. Let me show you:

"Adding to what Bren mentioned, won't it be fun to use a device that generates a rich wash of harmonic distortion, AC hum & noise, and begins deteriorating the moment it's turned on?"

------->I think its pretty easy to infer the condescension through sarcasm. Check out the sarcasm in the above comment. When one replies to another's comments with sarcasm, this shows no respect for the preceeding comments.

"...but it's horse-and-buggy technology best left and admired for what it did surprisingly well in the first half of the 20th century because there were no alternatives."

-----> There is no - "why don't you try them both out and then decide." He is clearly saying to leave it alone and admire the stuff in an audio museum or something. Bull. A better answer would be to say why don't you try them out for yourself.

"If someone wants the nostalgia of watching those tube filaments glow orange on a cold winter night, fine, but building a tube CD player now is, at the least, eccentric if not nutty. "

------> Excuse me? Nutty? Right, no condescension there. Sure. Further, reducing serious music listeners to dolts who are attracted to warm glowing lights like a child on a cold winter night? Please.

Do we have to go through this again? No. Let's just drop this.

If we stopped talking about everything we have discussed before, there would be little else to talk about.

If we stopped talking about everything we have discussed before, there would be little else to talk about.

But this was a particularly acrimoneous "discussion." No reason to get back into this. I wasn't even here when it happened, but just read through it. Not the kind of "discussion" I like to come here for...

I will admit it was a surprise to see it resumed.
I also agree on the tone of the thread, and the fact that nothing is/was resolved.

But this type of thread, and the topics return - what comes around, goes around. That was my point.

I guess I'll stop reading the archives then.

Don't stop reading the archives. Just don't bring them out of cold storage. The problem with dredging up particularly acrimonious discussions is that anything you add to them, even separated by a large gap in time, will still take on the overall flavor of the thread.

Threads usually die on their own when nothing further can be gained from them. Dead horses don't walk, even when beaten, as it were.

as BBIBH said, its not the kind of discussion that's particularly attractive. that's why I said something. never mind.

Have you looked into the Music Hall 25? I believe this is the one I will go for in the near future. Said to be a wonderfull starting CD player with tons of great Mods if you want to upgrade at any time. Audiogon is a good place to look. Just my 2 cents
As with all components its up to personal pref.