Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Hearing Things LFR-1100's and assorted tests to be done

I forgot a couple - scotch & motorcycles...

TAM

The option for the powered DSP is very new and for most of us that have bought the LFR's in the past, this was never given as an option. Sadly Axiom doesn't do a very good job of giving any descriptions of some of the products that they sell. There are multiple DSP options that come with the LFR (before there was 3) and as there are also no manuals for the units, you are left to guess.

I take it from what I can see, the DSP option you are talking about is a marry between the bottom end DSP1 and some form of an ADA1000 amp. So there is no balanced connectors for the unit, and from the bad photo you do get, it looks like you need to connect it up via a pair of speaker wires, or maybe there is an RCA there too.

I am currently using an Anthem MCA5ii as my amp to power the LFR1100 and the fifth channel to run my VP180.

My question was more direct. You can buy many grades of amplifiers today. Some people swear blind that their $10k+ amp brings their speakers to life, where others say that the built in amp on their receiver does a spectacular job. Yes there are some speakers that are very hard to drive and the difference in a good high current amp is like night and day between muddy and crisp sound.

I don't have the money in my back pocket to experiment and try buying several of these high end amplifiers nor do I have any method to blind test them with myself to see if there is any improvement over the $1000 amp that I currently have. That doesn't mean that I am not curious to know if it is even worth looking into getting a better or more powerful amp for myself some day in the future. I guess that only option I have is to lug my amp up to Axiom and see if they would be interested to demo me the LFR's with their ADA1250 or 1500 with an LFR1100 speaker against my Anthem MCA amp to see if I can hear a difference, or at least enough of one to justify the cost of their amp.

I wonder how much is snobbery vs deafness vs ignorance vs bad experiences with a particular manufacturer.

Speaking for myself, for many years it was ignorance. I acquired Bose 601 Series IIIs for free as part of a package deal when I finished university in '88. For nearly two decades, those Boses were all I knew. The thought to check out other speakers didn't even occur to me. Even if it had, I was too pre-occupied with "life" to check out something different. The revelation came when I bought a cheap, plastic Sony bookshelf system for a different room. My eyes were opened; the Sonys sounded so much better! Even though the Sonys were utter crap, they were gold compared to the 601s.

The 601s are now with my buddy. He loves them! He can't tell the difference between the 601s and my M80s. Even though the 601s have bloated lows, a big hole in the mid-range and non-existent highs, he spends many hours each week getting lost in 80s music with them. Although he is very capable of dropping 100 grand on a pair of speakers without batting an eyelid, he loves the 601s and would never consider upgrading. One thing you should know about this buddy of mine is he's very deaf. Many years of competitive target shooting and hunting have taken their toll.

Then we also have folks who obviously feel "ripped off" or somehow slighted and will take every opportunity to exploit design decisions that, when evaluated individually, appear wrong. However, those same decisions, when evaluated in the context of system performance vs. cost, were prudent.

This is about the most accurate and funny quote about blind testing.

Many people, even after the blind test, go back to his/her biases, regardless the results. This also happens with loudspeakers - a guy will start claiming after the test is done why his own results were tainted by the test. Now that he can see the speakers, he knows which are the better pair. It's always amusing.

Matt - I understood your question on amps (please don't think I was ignoring your point), and still think the listening test for amps would be better done here with the Legacy's.

For your system ... you mention whether the Axiom amps are worth the cost vs. Anthem. I am looking at Anthem's site, and the PVA-5 is rated at 5 x 105 WPC, all 5 channels driven, into 8 ohms. Retail is $1999 vs. $1332 for the ADA-1005 rated at 5 x 125 WPC into 8 ohms.

The Anthem P5 is rated at 5 x 325 WPC into 8 ohms for $8499 vs. the ADA-1500-5 at 5 x 300 WPC into 8 ohms for $3150.

Amps cost a lot more everywhere these days. Even Outlaw and Emotiva are getting more $$$$.

That being said - You are a lot closer to a lot of Ontario audio guys than I am. The switcher I have is pretty portable. Maybe we could have a GTG at your place, or someone else's place in the GTA this winter, and I could bring the switcher.

I can offer this based on experience - the amp test will be the LEAST likely test to have major results. Listening for differences in amps, under blind conditions, is almost always guesswork.

When the guys at Home Theater Shack did such a test last year, one guy got it right 5 out of 7 times, and the rest were below 50 percent. The guy who got it right 5 out of 7 times was upset when it was pointed out to him that one out of 6 guys guessing it right 71 percent of the time while everyone else was below 50 percent was just the law of averages.

We would have a far more useful time spent blind testing speakers.

To your point about Axiom and issues with product, agreed. For example - when ordering the DSP/AMP combo, I know from ordering that one can get balanced inputs, RCA inputs ... etc ... There are so many options available, but this concept is not conveyed nearly to the point it should be.

Go look, as a small example, the EP350 page. It shows one with two ports - I think this was the V.2 ... then a slot port for the V.3.

The V.4 has triple ports, newer driver, newer amp designed by Andrew ... etc ... and not a single test done on it in its current configuration.

Based on my experience with 12 inch ported subs, I find pretty much ALL of them to have port chuffing issues because they are tuned too low with too small a port. Andrew is pretty confident an EP350 is almost impossible to make sound bad.

After discussions about the design of the EP350 V.4, I am ordering one to find out how it does in a real listening room against an SVS PC-2000.

There is a LOT Axiom could do in terms of delivering their message. They just need someone to coordinate it.

SO ... Let me know if you want to have a GTG in January or February, when we are all freezing and bored.

You should organize a blind test of motorcycles ...

Thanks for the suggestion about the Spyro Gyra SACD's .. both arrived, and are excellent demo music.

I also took Doug Schneider's suggestion and got the Cowboy Junkie's "Trinity Session" CD.

The Harley guys wouldn't go for it, ha!!

Glad you liked SG. I know that I sure do...

TAM

I guess you have answered my question without actually saying anything.

The BLUNT question was, 'Doe it make any F-ing difference between a $1000 (used) amp and a $10,000 (used) amp when playing music through a pair of LFR1100 speakers.'

If by what you are saying, that you would have a far better result doing this test with the Legacy speakers, and you would be just trying the law of averages in guessing if I did the same test with the Axiom LFR1100s, then the question is answered.. it's not worth spending your time or money on a better amp as you wont truly hear any difference.

Thanks.

Matt ... Most of the sonic differences in amps is the ability to deliver a stable current level into the speakers in a manner in which the speaker can be driven to its potential.

A great example of this has been NAD amps over the decades. When I was selling audio full time in the 1979 to 1982 years, we used to compare a NAD 3020, 20 WPC amp, to the 100 WPC receivers from Technics/Pioneer/Kenwood/Hitachi ...

The NAD mopped the floor with them.

In your particular case, I doubt changing amps will make any difference in sound quality. Anthem amps are high current, quality products.

A question for you ... you do not have a DSP for your 1100's?

Yes, I have the most current DSP2 and use XLR interconnects.

Your comment does make sense to me and probably mimics my experience. In my youth I had owned several receivers that didn't really sound all that great. Eventually I bought myself a Nakamchi AV1 and the sound from it was simply wonderful. The unit was built like a brick s-house and blew away everything that I have had before it, and pretty much any receiver I have had since. When I bought my first set of Axioms the Nak made them sing, but a more modern 2013 Pioneer Elite, even though it is supposed to be more than capable still sounded rather thin and lacking.

There is this hardened belief out there, probably driven by the amount of junk that is made claiming to be high current but really is not, that you need monster amps to get good sound from any speaker. I was wanting to get the answer from a reliable source.