Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Hearing Things LFR-1100's and assorted tests to be done

God morning guys ... My financial services company is growing rapidly, and time for the review process is sparse right now. But a quick update on the LFR-1100's is in order.

They arrived three weeks ago Wednesday, and to put it into the simplest of terms, the combo of the LFR-1100 in stereo with a single EP800 crossed at 40 Hz is the finest music system I have ever heard, let alone owned.

Last night, while listening to Disc Two of "In The Flesh", an SACD from Roger Waters, I was stunned by the sheer scope of the performance. Guitar off to the deep left sound stage, the larger than life drum set sounding as if it was coming from the heavens, the female lead vocalist soaring into her high notes.

The subtle shouts coming from the audience that I have never heard before, even with the Infinity IRS Sigmas, the Legacy Signature SE's ... and other high end speakers.

Bass is so deep ... there is this omnipresent undertone that, again, was never there with other subwoofers. It adds so much to the performance.

It has now become an evening ritual to sneak into the basement every night to listen to a disc - The Cowboy Junkies, Steely Dan, Spiro Gyra, Pink Floyd, Michael Stanley, Rush, Mozart ... etc ... etc ...

One thing about the LFR-1100's ... they don't "snag you" with any one item - no "super treble" ... no mid range bump for "clarity". It's just music. It's neutral, but not sterile.

I wish I had the opportunity to compare the LFRs to other high end speakers. The more I listened to the LFRs at the Axiom bash the more impressed I was.

Well, maybe only half wish. It's a dangerous thing listening to speakers you can't afford.

Sweet! Congrats.

Vindication on some money well spent. Thanks

I will however just have to make do with my pair of EP500's

Matt - I feel your pain at "only" having a pair of EP500's. Which leads to a bit of a discussion regarding subwoofers.

As many of you know, when we had Chase Home Theater, we were building and selling passive 18 inch subwoofers. These subwoofers used an 18 inch driver from Eminence. This driver is now being used by Power Sound Audio in their subs.

Two different customers went onto the PSA site, and both asked if the PSA drivers were the same as our old drivers, and were told it's a completely different woofer. If it is, then PSA cheapened our design. The 18 we used is the best 18 Eminence can build and does build.

For whatever reason, the folks at PSA seem to think it's an "insult" to suggest their driver is the same as ours. To this I say: We published all the T/S parameters on our driver, and still have them. If PSA wishes to do the same, this can be settled.

Here is the funny part - both customers were looking at the PSA 3600i to add to an SS-18.2. PSA had a chance to make both into customers. I personally SENT each of the customers to their web site.

This is one of the weird aspects of audio - the general fighting and self anointed "experts".

This "expert" issue is the next thing I am going to attempt to tackle.

I love the objectivity of the Data-Bass testing.

I grimace at how the Data-Bass testing has made a bunch of guys into forum experts merely because they can add and subtract.

Here is the analysis of a Data-Bass test between two subs:

Sub "A" did 102.5 dB in the CEA-2010 Burst Test at 20 Hz vs. Sub "B" only managing 101 dB. Sub "A" is 1.5 dB better.

That's it. To these guys, it's game over. No mention of sound quality. No looking at long term output over a frequency bandwidth. No blind listening tests. Nothing but an arbitrary number using a tone burst that is 0.325 second long.

CEA-2010 not only does not tell anything about sound quality, it really does not do a very good job telling one about how powerful the subwoofer system is.

Based on the previous post, one might wonder "if a CEA-2010 test is not that great an indicator of performance, what is?"

And that is a legitimate question.

I would look at a few items at Data Bass, with some understanding about what happens in the real world.

Let's take two specific subwoofers - two with which I have auditioned extensively: The Velodyne DD-18 plus and the SVS PB-13 Ultra.

In the CEA-2010 tone burst test, the PB-13 Ultra in its 15 Hz tuning deliver 109.2 dB vs. 103.4 for the Velodyne DD-18+.

In forum world, the PB-13 ultra, at $2000, "wins" easily over the DD-18+ at $6000 retail and $4000 "street price".

Let's look at the data further, and long term output:

From 10-40 Hz, the Velodyne delivered 103.4 dB to the SVS's 103.9 dB.

Here is the main issue - the last 5 to 6 dB in output in the Ultra will have increasing chuffing sounds. It's unavoidable in all of these subwoofers which are ported, especially when one starts plugging some of the ports.

The Ultra, in 15 Hz mode, has less than 20 square inches of port area, and to try to deliver high output in that 10-15 Hz range is to guarantee a lot of chuffing.

In our VS-18.1, we used a 30 square inch port, tuned to 19 Hz, and chuffing was an issue there, too.

In a real world listening situation, the Velodyne will sound better, deeper and more powerful than the PB-13 Ultra.

The good news for SVS fans - for $3000, you can get a pair of SB-13 Ultras. On paper, the PB-13 Ultra delivers about the same 103.8 dB as a pair of SB-13 Ultras, but in reality, the sealed pair will always sound better. There will be no noises. There will just be clean, distortion free bass, well worth the extra $1000.

This brings us to the EP-500/600/800 subwoofers. They are an unusual design, with a DSP setting a flat amplitude regardless the frequency, up to the max output available at that frequency.

I have tried a single EP-800 against an SS-18.2, and the EP800 sounds better, and more powerful, on every scene.

Last night, my kids surprised me, brining over "Jurassic World" to watch. The old man kicked it into high gear - he lugged the VP180 up from the basement, along with the M50's to replace the M3's.

The PC-2000 was swapped out for a pair of EP800's in our room, and I dialed the system in the old fashioned way: A Rad Shack meter and no Audyssey.

As an aside, at 55, I can still easily carry an EP800. Thanks to my son and his weight training regimen he put me on.

During the movie, the kids had a BLAST (they are 22 and 24). They declared the system has never sounded better, and it was the VP180 and the EP800's doing the heavy lifting here.

Velodyne and Axiom use similar thinking in terms of subwoofer performance: Long throw drivers, sealed systems, DSP control (or servo control) and make sure the sub never makes an audibly bad noise while also delivering a linear response.

It works. If you want to listen to a subwoofer and never worry about it failing, bottoming, chuffing .... etc .... looking at the design is far more important than looking at a 0.325 tone burst at Data-Bass.

And guys, this is not a fault of Data-Bass: The info is there, we just need to learn to look at what's important.

If I could change one thing that Josh does there, I would have a 16-80 Hz long term sine wave average. That is THE single most important overall curve - much more telling than 10-40.

Of course, he does have 20-80, and if one looks at it, one will see a lot of consistency between 10-40 and 20-80.

Sealed is "better" for a ton of reasons.

Totally agree people get too hung up on figures, especially gross output, and ignore what matters -in room performance.

FWIW, the loudest members on most issues online have sorely lacking implementation of gear they dont really deserve. The 2ch section on AVS is hilarious, in both camps.

Whats got your pressure up? Those posts came from the blue it seems.

Serenity ... It's more of a "I have been meaning to discuss this for years" than it is a "pressure is up" that got me to post this morning. Plus - I had some free time.

You mentioned implementing gear ... and that reminded me of one gent who is using about $15,000 worth of subwoofers with a pair of 12 year old Rocket 750's - which were decent speakers - but talk about a lack of balance in a system.

I have been amused by these guys for a long time. I have asked this question a few times, on other forums, for years, and never get an answer.

The question: When does sound quality start to matter? If SPL is "everything", then we should all buy Cerwin Vega and call it a day.

This whole idea that "this subwoofer is 0.5 dB better" based on a chart is just ... wrong.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine a while back touching on this very topic. He does a lot of DJ work in his spare time and we got to talking about some of the similarities/differences between pro equipment and home audio equipment. My opinion was, and he agreed, that DJ's care mostly about spl as that is more important, where HT guys generally prioritize sound quality first.

Craig, I love that you're NOT one of those who only judge subs by their output(only) and appreciate your efforts to inform. If a sub plays loud but makes all kinds of unwanted noise, what is the point? marketing? our sub is better 'cause it's louder? lol!

...there are car companies doing the same thing with peak hp numbers because it sells.

There is some hope in the forum world - some guys on AVS are actually talking about long term output over CEA-2010 burst tests.

There is still no one discussing how these high output ported subs will chuff long before the driver bottoms out.

I was working with RE Audio in looking at one of their OEM 18's that had about 30 MM of X-max (one way).

The engineers at RE suggested tuning to about 28 Hz with a port area of about 80 square inches to avoid tuning. When we talked about getting full output at 16 Hz, they flat out told me to go with dual sealed subs and avoid the noise, or else build a 30 cubic foot cabinet with about 140 square inches of port area.

In our own line up, even though the big vented "VS-18.1" was 6 dB less powerful in the CEA-2010 burst (at 20 Hz) than the dual driver 18 inch sealed SS-18.2, in long term output at 20 Hz they were equal, with the dual driver extending nicely to 10 Hz and the overall output and slam dusting the vented.

Even the single driver SS-18.1 was close in a real room.

What does this have to do with the tests here? During my hiatus as a hobbyist, while trying to get partners and vendors to actually work (they didn't), Axiom took all the top end designs, reworked the woofer into a more powerful unit, and made them sealed.

The other thing, based on listening tests here, that the guys (and Debbie) did was to do a lot of blind listening tests to help with the DSP-AMP-Driver-Enclosure interface.

Over the weekend, I flipped back and forth between the SS-18.2, the EP800 and the PC2000 on "The Walking Dead" on HD. There was this ever present bass line - a pulsing - that was distinct and in your chest. It was not loud, it was an under current.

The PC2000 made a "lump" sound. The SS-18.2 made a "thump" sound. The EP-800 made a "Hit" sound. It was subtly felt, and added to the menacing scene.

This is the hardest part of reviewing these types of products: I can't post a chart that shows how this "hit" was far better sounding than a "lump" or "thump". Everyone here noticed the difference.

This pattern has repeated itself over and over. On Steely Dan's 2 Against Nature, The kick drum is so deep and tight, the EP800 makes it into a different performance than even the SS-18.2.

The EP500/600/800 will never "win" a "most SPL for the $$$". It will win for those who are willing to spend the extra $$$ to get the best sounding bass.

The subwoofer that I would love to directly do an A/B with the EP800 would be either a JL Audio Fathom 212 or a Velodyne DD-18 plus. Another consideration would be a JTR Captivator S1. Yet another would be a pair of the SB13 Ultras.

Any thoughts?