Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Hearing Things LFR-1100's and assorted tests to be done

Greetings everyone ... Since April, we have put together quite the collection of speakers and subwoofers in our place.

This started as a thread idea for Home Theater Shack - but the forum there just does not get a lot of traffic. It's not quite clear where the testing as being done will be posted, but it seemed like a fun idea to start a thread to get ideas about what people would like to see tested.

Here is what we have in house already (with a quick blurb on each):

Legacy Audio Signature SE's (Want B&W Diamond 802 sound for less than half the cost?)

Axiom Audio M3's (Blind tested at length full range against $1100 PSB Imagine B monitor, and with great results)

Axiom Audio M50's (The Swiss Army knife speaker - does fantastic things for under a kilobuck)

Chase Home Theater Theater 10's (Not pretty, but will hang with the $600 per speaker monitors one will find elsewhere)

Bose 301's (Because blind testing against them is a Floyd E Toole approved idea)

Axiom M100's (Delivering performance far above their price point. I would say at least double the price .. except for the next speaker)

Axiom LFR-1100's (For about $1730 more than M100's, increased detail, amazing sound stage, tightened bass)

Martin Logan ESL Hybrids (A fun speaker ... headphones without the annoying headphone feel)

PSB Imagine B Bookshelf (A standard bearer for several magazines)

Klipsch LaScala (Stereophile Class A, and a wonderful experience)

SUBWOOFERS

Axiom EP-800 (Reference quality bass)

SVS-PB-13 Ultra (Fantastic detail for a $2000 sub)

Chase Home Theater SS-18.2 (DIY without the work - Best 18 inch driver Eminence can build)

Outlaw Audio LFM-EX (Wonderful value sub - and working great after 7 years)

UNDER CONSIDERATION ...

SVS PC-2000 and Axiom EP350 ... both take up less than 2 square feet of space, and both around $800 USD delivered in the US.

The "under 2 square feet" is a big deal in most homes. Most subwoofers - especially those over 20 inches deep - stick out into the décor in most rooms.

Both the PC-2000 and EP350 promise excellent bass for relatively little $$$$ and floor space. I am likely going to test each in our 4500 cubic foot theater.

As for the rest ... As we get into late fall and early winter, look for a more detailed write up on the Legacy's, M100's and LFR-1100's. I am just not sure where the write ups will go. The hope is to make each a thread in which the performance and design goals can be discussed without rancor.

The same thing goes for the M3's, PSB's ... etc ...

Guests will be welcome here, should anyone wish to schedule a trip. Any manufacturer's product will be welcome - but it's important to understand many do not like listening tests done unless it's with that manufacturer's own "fan base".

Many would be surprised at the response when I ask if a manufacturer is interested in my purchasing a product for test purposes. For the record, Ed Mullen at SVS and Ian have been the most positive. This speaks volumes about their confidence.

OPEN THREAD ...

So please, consider this an open thread. Invite people from other forums to check this out, and if there is a product or idea you want to explore, let me know.

For some humor (hopefully) ... I do this because I love this hobby. When new speakers show up, it's like Christmas morning to a 6 year old. In the summer, I golf, in the winter, I "speaker", in terms of hobbies.

Thank you for posting in our forum, your reviews are very informative.
I'm not surprised that SVS and Axiom are the most willing for the comparisons. When I was still on the fence about Axiom, I came across a post here asking if we could play our M3 as full range speakers.
Ian replied back with the most confident, You can play any axiom at any range you like they can handle anything with ease.
Which came across almost cocky.
I was sold that much confidence and the link to the Scientific's, for proof on top. Very few company's would ever be so bold, let alone be able to back it up, with complete confidence in their products.
Looking forward to your hopefully awesome winter when the snow hits in a couple weeks.
Cheers Brendan

Craig, I'm curious how the Klipsch R-115SW would compare in the $700-800USD range. It's in line price-wise with the SVS and Axiom and seems to get positive reviews.

Also, is there any chance of adding some of the better KEF speakers to your line-up(above the Q series...specifically the R700-900 towers).

Thanks again for spending the time and money to organise these tests, it's much appreciated.

That Klipsch is nice competition for the PB-2000!

Craig, what's the story behind the comment you made on the 301s?

It's the worst speaker I've ever heard! Even the Realistic Nova 6 is better. I'd rather listen to my plastic Sonys under water than the 301s .

These tests are a great read any very informative. You do a great job. I'd love to read some GTG reports and think it would be great if you could get guests to lug their own speakers over. If you were within driving distance I'd drag some over for fun.

I know it isn't your your goal to do a shootout style, or proclaim "winners" but as a reader and follower of online reviews I'd offer some suggestions to satisfy naysayers if you take your reviews to other forums. If you post here at Axiom, this wont be an issue, but you wont get as broad of readership.

Tell them where speakers fall short. Overly positive reviews are boring and sound scripted. Tell them how they compare directly to speakers on hand. Be blunt and precise where necessary. Reviews will be nitpicked, be prepared to shut down critics with pictures and stats. Provide in room "as tested" measurements of frequency response using a standardized test for all speakers. I recommend dual mono pink noise, because its easy and you dont have to do per channel sweeps. Test without room correction, and without subs. Give an acoustic impression of your room as well.

Create a standardized test report format (like Ralph Potts' bluray reviews). Include lots of pics and be technical. Stats and graphs matter to experienced (and often oppositional) readers.

The readers can glean how a speaker's response and description in your room compares with others, and your preferences according to your reviews. If you provide measurements, your reviews will be AVS friendly as well.

I wont suggest speakers, but am looking forward to read your upcoming reports. Keep up the great work.

Adrian - I listened to the R700's at a high end store, and it was less than impressive. The GoldenEar speakers they had were quite a bit better.

Is there any interest in GoldenEar?

The Klipsch sub is larger than we planned on ... but it's the best budget choice so far in the "brick and mortar" subwoofers. Good recommendation!

This is what makes blind tests so informative. One would think that every listener would easily pick another speaker over the 301 ... but what about those who possibly don't?

Thanks - I will likely be picking up the latest Omni-Mic system from Parts Express. It's accurate and simple to use. I have the original one here, but it's 4 years old now, and the newer one looks like a nice step up.

It's going to take some time to get all this organized, but most of what you suggested is already in place. No room EQ is being used now.

Awesome!

Ahhh yes. Thank you. I seem to recall now I read somewhere (deaf?) listeners preferred the 301s over the LFR1100s (?) .

I'll vote for GoldenEar for the second time.

Serenity ... I had to check on something ... for your consideration ... In my first "stint" doing reviews, I posted over 700 measurements with TRU RTA over a 6 year time period ... there are certain people that, no matter how much factual information is provided, just want to fight.

LOL ... that was funny.

The truth is more important than the facts .

Yeah, you wont win the crazies over. You know, the "I'm always right and too stubborn to change or yield" folks.

Oodles at AVS and Audioholics.

I would still love to see data accompany your tests. Great info and learning opportunity I think. Where did your old reviews go up? They were subwoofers mostly if I remember. I'm guessing you want to start the review process anew somewhere else?

The "how and where" for these reviews will likely work themselves out. At 55, I am a lot less combative than I was at 45. Getting three kids through the teen years does that to you.

This time around, regardless where the reviews are posted, trolls will just be ignored.

I would REALLY like to have 2 or 3 small GTG's here this winter.

Graphs will be posted - and with the new pre-amp level switcher we have, the tests will be a lot more informative than ever. We can even do instant blind A/B of single speakers in mono.

the title of the thread caught my eye.

The LFR is an interesting speaker, and though you are asking for other speakers that you should look into, I am going to ask for a different tact.

As the LFR is shall we say the top end of the Axiom line and a rather unique design of speaker in it will only work with an external amp and not a receiver due to its external DSP. One of the questions I have had with my purchase was if or how much the selection of the power amp plays to its sound. Will you get the same level of sound stage and quality from a budget minded amp (like a $500 Adcom) compared to a larger to tier amp (like a $5k+ Jeff Rolands or Mark Levinson)

Put the two speakers in the mid point of the room and wire one speaker to one amp and the other to a different one. It's a perfect blind test as unless you follow the wires to see what is actually hooked up you can test A/B against any combination.

Are you getting any bang for you buck with a better or more expensive amp all else held equal.

Matt - I was skeptical that the LFR-1100 would be a step up from the M100's. I have never liked a bi-polar main speaker, dating back to the 1998-2002 era when I had several different Def Tech Bipolars including the BP-2000 and BP-3000 speakers.

The LFR-1100 is actually available as a complete system, with an option to add a 4 channel ADA-1000 into the same chassis as the DSP for an extra $750.

Basically, it's now a $5000 speaker pair (USD) that is DSP and self powered.

Doing a blind test with the LFR-1100 against other speakers will be doable, just more complicated.

To the amp question ... we could easily do a blind test between a pair of amps. I would likely use the Legacy Signature SE's ... they are not only a high resolution speaker, but they are also more difficult to drive, especially in the bass department, than other speakers.

This is really not a "bad thing" ... when one is dropping $7000-$9000 on a pair of speakers, it's appropriate to use a very high current amp, which the Legacy's need in order to thrive.

A couple nights ago, a friend of mine did an impromptu "blind" wine tasting test on a few of us. Two glasses for all of us. We all like both wines, until he showed us "the box". One of the guys was disgusted, and started back peddling on the box wine - saying he didn't like it (but he did earlier). I thought it was hilarious. I went out and bought a few boxes. The other wine was a $125 Napa Cab Sav. The box was from Costco - Botabox.

Blind testing is fun. I'd love to try it with speakers.

Unfortunately there is a lot of 'snobbery' out there - whether it be coffee, wine, cigars, speakers, etc.

I find it not only humourous, but a little pathetic & juvenile as well...

TAM

I forgot a couple - scotch & motorcycles...

TAM

The option for the powered DSP is very new and for most of us that have bought the LFR's in the past, this was never given as an option. Sadly Axiom doesn't do a very good job of giving any descriptions of some of the products that they sell. There are multiple DSP options that come with the LFR (before there was 3) and as there are also no manuals for the units, you are left to guess.

I take it from what I can see, the DSP option you are talking about is a marry between the bottom end DSP1 and some form of an ADA1000 amp. So there is no balanced connectors for the unit, and from the bad photo you do get, it looks like you need to connect it up via a pair of speaker wires, or maybe there is an RCA there too.

I am currently using an Anthem MCA5ii as my amp to power the LFR1100 and the fifth channel to run my VP180.

My question was more direct. You can buy many grades of amplifiers today. Some people swear blind that their $10k+ amp brings their speakers to life, where others say that the built in amp on their receiver does a spectacular job. Yes there are some speakers that are very hard to drive and the difference in a good high current amp is like night and day between muddy and crisp sound.

I don't have the money in my back pocket to experiment and try buying several of these high end amplifiers nor do I have any method to blind test them with myself to see if there is any improvement over the $1000 amp that I currently have. That doesn't mean that I am not curious to know if it is even worth looking into getting a better or more powerful amp for myself some day in the future. I guess that only option I have is to lug my amp up to Axiom and see if they would be interested to demo me the LFR's with their ADA1250 or 1500 with an LFR1100 speaker against my Anthem MCA amp to see if I can hear a difference, or at least enough of one to justify the cost of their amp.

I wonder how much is snobbery vs deafness vs ignorance vs bad experiences with a particular manufacturer.

Speaking for myself, for many years it was ignorance. I acquired Bose 601 Series IIIs for free as part of a package deal when I finished university in '88. For nearly two decades, those Boses were all I knew. The thought to check out other speakers didn't even occur to me. Even if it had, I was too pre-occupied with "life" to check out something different. The revelation came when I bought a cheap, plastic Sony bookshelf system for a different room. My eyes were opened; the Sonys sounded so much better! Even though the Sonys were utter crap, they were gold compared to the 601s.

The 601s are now with my buddy. He loves them! He can't tell the difference between the 601s and my M80s. Even though the 601s have bloated lows, a big hole in the mid-range and non-existent highs, he spends many hours each week getting lost in 80s music with them. Although he is very capable of dropping 100 grand on a pair of speakers without batting an eyelid, he loves the 601s and would never consider upgrading. One thing you should know about this buddy of mine is he's very deaf. Many years of competitive target shooting and hunting have taken their toll.

Then we also have folks who obviously feel "ripped off" or somehow slighted and will take every opportunity to exploit design decisions that, when evaluated individually, appear wrong. However, those same decisions, when evaluated in the context of system performance vs. cost, were prudent.

This is about the most accurate and funny quote about blind testing.

Many people, even after the blind test, go back to his/her biases, regardless the results. This also happens with loudspeakers - a guy will start claiming after the test is done why his own results were tainted by the test. Now that he can see the speakers, he knows which are the better pair. It's always amusing.

Matt - I understood your question on amps (please don't think I was ignoring your point), and still think the listening test for amps would be better done here with the Legacy's.

For your system ... you mention whether the Axiom amps are worth the cost vs. Anthem. I am looking at Anthem's site, and the PVA-5 is rated at 5 x 105 WPC, all 5 channels driven, into 8 ohms. Retail is $1999 vs. $1332 for the ADA-1005 rated at 5 x 125 WPC into 8 ohms.

The Anthem P5 is rated at 5 x 325 WPC into 8 ohms for $8499 vs. the ADA-1500-5 at 5 x 300 WPC into 8 ohms for $3150.

Amps cost a lot more everywhere these days. Even Outlaw and Emotiva are getting more $$$$.

That being said - You are a lot closer to a lot of Ontario audio guys than I am. The switcher I have is pretty portable. Maybe we could have a GTG at your place, or someone else's place in the GTA this winter, and I could bring the switcher.

I can offer this based on experience - the amp test will be the LEAST likely test to have major results. Listening for differences in amps, under blind conditions, is almost always guesswork.

When the guys at Home Theater Shack did such a test last year, one guy got it right 5 out of 7 times, and the rest were below 50 percent. The guy who got it right 5 out of 7 times was upset when it was pointed out to him that one out of 6 guys guessing it right 71 percent of the time while everyone else was below 50 percent was just the law of averages.

We would have a far more useful time spent blind testing speakers.

To your point about Axiom and issues with product, agreed. For example - when ordering the DSP/AMP combo, I know from ordering that one can get balanced inputs, RCA inputs ... etc ... There are so many options available, but this concept is not conveyed nearly to the point it should be.

Go look, as a small example, the EP350 page. It shows one with two ports - I think this was the V.2 ... then a slot port for the V.3.

The V.4 has triple ports, newer driver, newer amp designed by Andrew ... etc ... and not a single test done on it in its current configuration.

Based on my experience with 12 inch ported subs, I find pretty much ALL of them to have port chuffing issues because they are tuned too low with too small a port. Andrew is pretty confident an EP350 is almost impossible to make sound bad.

After discussions about the design of the EP350 V.4, I am ordering one to find out how it does in a real listening room against an SVS PC-2000.

There is a LOT Axiom could do in terms of delivering their message. They just need someone to coordinate it.

SO ... Let me know if you want to have a GTG in January or February, when we are all freezing and bored.

You should organize a blind test of motorcycles ...

Thanks for the suggestion about the Spyro Gyra SACD's .. both arrived, and are excellent demo music.

I also took Doug Schneider's suggestion and got the Cowboy Junkie's "Trinity Session" CD.

The Harley guys wouldn't go for it, ha!!

Glad you liked SG. I know that I sure do...

TAM

I guess you have answered my question without actually saying anything.

The BLUNT question was, 'Doe it make any F-ing difference between a $1000 (used) amp and a $10,000 (used) amp when playing music through a pair of LFR1100 speakers.'

If by what you are saying, that you would have a far better result doing this test with the Legacy speakers, and you would be just trying the law of averages in guessing if I did the same test with the Axiom LFR1100s, then the question is answered.. it's not worth spending your time or money on a better amp as you wont truly hear any difference.

Thanks.

Matt ... Most of the sonic differences in amps is the ability to deliver a stable current level into the speakers in a manner in which the speaker can be driven to its potential.

A great example of this has been NAD amps over the decades. When I was selling audio full time in the 1979 to 1982 years, we used to compare a NAD 3020, 20 WPC amp, to the 100 WPC receivers from Technics/Pioneer/Kenwood/Hitachi ...

The NAD mopped the floor with them.

In your particular case, I doubt changing amps will make any difference in sound quality. Anthem amps are high current, quality products.

A question for you ... you do not have a DSP for your 1100's?

Yes, I have the most current DSP2 and use XLR interconnects.

Your comment does make sense to me and probably mimics my experience. In my youth I had owned several receivers that didn't really sound all that great. Eventually I bought myself a Nakamchi AV1 and the sound from it was simply wonderful. The unit was built like a brick s-house and blew away everything that I have had before it, and pretty much any receiver I have had since. When I bought my first set of Axioms the Nak made them sing, but a more modern 2013 Pioneer Elite, even though it is supposed to be more than capable still sounded rather thin and lacking.

There is this hardened belief out there, probably driven by the amount of junk that is made claiming to be high current but really is not, that you need monster amps to get good sound from any speaker. I was wanting to get the answer from a reliable source.

Audible differences in amps may also be due to design philosophy. These may be shaped by the experiences of the manufacturer or the designer. My Denon has a noticeably softer sound than my Onk likely because Denon traded off higher slew rate (and maybe even bandwidth) for greater stability. Maybe Denon had historical problems with stability (which can be caused by "esoteric" cables), created a reference design to ensure such a problem is never repeated and the design is now forever etched in all Denon products.

I'd like to hear a comparison between the Axiom M100s and the Tannoy Revolution XT 8F.

Power amps, integrated amps, comparisons between power amps with various preamps, it'll get pretty crowded.

I'm looking forward to an Odyssey Candela tube preamp to go with the Khartago extreme power amp. I'll then be able to compare the Candela to a B&K Reference solid state preamp with the Khartago.

Permutations of amp/pre/ speaker A v. Speaker n will get pretty crowded and expensive.

As has probably been brought up ore often than not, the one speaker company Axiom's would be most cross-shopped with would likely be Paradigm. That would make for some good comparative testing due to their similar design goals (although it's just as interesting to compare inherently different designs).

Why stop at Paradigms. Get a pair of every speaker out there.

"What are we doing tonight Pinky? The same thing we do every night. Try to listen to every speaker in the world!"

Gents - One of the tests I wanted to do this fall/winter is one of affordable subwoofers with a fairly small footprint.

Pricing is to be under $1000 USD delivered.

Size is to be under 2.5 square feet of floor space, as larger than this, and the subwoofer starts to "stand out" in most decors.

All the rage lately is massive subwoofer systems, and while this makes for great bragging rights in the forum world, I think all this "126 dB at 20 Hz from eight 18 inch sealed subwoofers and 12,000 watts of power for only $12,000 plus the labor to build it" has left a big void.

SO ... I put together a list of 5 subwoofers to try and test. Here are the subs, and the results in getting them so far:

1. SVS PC-2000 @ $800 delivered. A 12 inch ported subwoofer which takes up 1.6 square feet.

I contacted Ed Mullen, and the subwoofer is ordered. He is quite confident about its performance, and was as much a professional as one could ask.

2. Powersound Audio S-1500 @ $1000 delivered. A 15 inch sealed wubwoofer which takes up 2.125 square of floor space.

I ordered the subwoofer, and the order was cancelled by Powersound. When I asked why it was cancelled, I was told that they were not interested in being involved in my review process.

3. Hsu Research ULS-15 Mark II @ $848 delivered. A 15 inch, sealed subwoofer which takes up 2.25 square feet.

I emailed Hsu about purchasing a sub for review twice, and received no response.

4. Reaction Audio Gamma 15 @ $900 delivered. A 15 inch sealed subwoofer which takes up 2.5 square feet of floor space.

I have talked to the owner, and he has expressed an interest. I am waiting a reply on three emails that we are now ordering review samples.

5. Axiom EP350 @ $840 delivered. A 12 inch ported subwoofer which takes up 1.75 square feet.

I talked to Debbie today, and it's ordered.

The review process will be along the line of what normal people do with a subwoofer. Each will be placed in the same location in a pretty large room.

Each will have XT-32 from Audyssey applied, with response curves taken from several listening positions, and listening tests done.

The response curves from each will be posted.

This is gonna be awesome!!

I forgot the cubic volume of your room. Pretty huge from what I remember.

I think the EP-350 should not be included in the big room test. Not even close in output. It should be judged on its own merits. The ep-800 is a better comparison. Nudge.

A 350w/12" driver vs. 900w/15"........ Yikes.

Its a shame Powersound, Reaction and HSU are playing coy. Powersound shouldnt have cancelled. Lame. The fella there is real popular here! Hold out for the others, maybe they are busy with all the CEDIA junk right now and production runs for the fall buying season.

Kudos to Axiom and SVS for being cool with letting a single individual compare their products head to head.

The EP800 is a $2480 subwoofer in the outlet - far out of the pricing allowed at $1000 USD delivered.

Keep in mind, the three 15 inch subs are all sealed, which require a lot of power, especially in a compact cabinet, to deliver deep bass.

The SVS and Axiom both have 12 inch woofers. The power differences, as rated, are about 2 dB different in peak output terms. The Axiom is tuned a bit higher. It should be an interesting comparison in a large room.

One aspect of performance I will be looking for is whether a subwoofer can be overdriven to "make a bad noise".

This is an area no one ever seems to discuss with subwoofers.

This is going to be fun!

This all looks fantastic and i had the druthers i would bring my own farting EP350 south for the listening fun.

My big question is, what the hell are you going to do with all these speakers once you're done?
Open a used speaker store?
Cuz there's no way you'll use all those enough in a lifetime to really enjoy it all, unless you built 12 or 13 different audio centers around the home.

Chess - We have a big, rambling farmhouse with 6 listening rooms. There's always a home for speakers.

One thing I should mention - the two people who redesigned the EP350 into the V.4 are confident that it will be quite the performer. By raising the tuning to the 26-28 Hz area, they have made a tradeoff for higher output in the 30-40 Hz "slam" area over extension. The PC2000, on paper, trades output in the 30-40 Hz range for that additional extension.

It will be interesting to test both, especially to discover if either can be made to make a "bad noise" when driven hard. That's one aspect (of many) that a standard test as performed at Data-Bass cannot tell you.

Driver bottoming, Port Noise, amp clipping under duress, are all performance issues which need to be explored when testing a sub.

Back to the EP350 in its current form - the folks at Axiom think it's a totally different animal then previous generations: Triple Vortex Ports, better driver, better amp, and Andrew is confident that the amp-driver-enclosure-port interface is "fool proof", as in it's "impossible" to make a bad noise.

We will find out soon enough.

Well i stand corrected.
You DO have enough rooms for all those lovely creatures of sound. Now you have to find the time to use all 6.


If you have an earlier version of the EP350 to compared, that would be interesting to 'hear' the design changes.
If i recall, the next EP350 after mine had a wide mouth port along the bottom before moving to a triple port design.

You can make the first version EP350 chuff fairly easy IMO. I've long contemplated getting something else but it isn't a priority over other things, like finding a new int-amp for my office b/c my vintage Kenwood is slowly failing. Although i like the blue lights and all, i want to move to something more modern and equally aesthetically interesting.
Maybe something Rotel or Music Fidelity.

Judging from several needless comments made elsewhere by PSA a while ago directed at Axiom, it doesn't surprise me that they turned you down...

TAM

Tom (Ex-Lab) - PSA seems to have issues, but not sure what they are. Had they allowed me to purchase a subwoofer, here is what would have happened:

It would have been calibrated into the system, and real world listening tests along with accurate in room measurements taken. As PSA uses Eminence drivers - drivers which are very close to what we used at Chase Home Theater - it is highly likely they would have gotten a very good review, as it is equally likely PSA makes an excellent product.

The current system in our 4500 cubic foot theater is as follows:

Receiver - Marantz 7800
Main speakers - Axiom M3's
Center Channel - Axiom VP150 V.3
Surrounds: ACI Emerald On Wall
Subwoofer: SVS PC-2000

The SVS arrived about 2.5 hours ago. Unpacking and calibrating was a snap.

I am currently watching "The Avengers" Blu Ray.

Of particular interest is the subwoofer performance from the SVS and the center channel performance of the VP150.

Both are doing quite well. The SVS is powerful, deep and non boomy. As it's replacing a pair of EP800's, it has a tough job. Bass is deep and tight. Obviously, there is a lot more testing to do, but it's off to a great start.

The VP150 is replacing a $1400 Klipsch RC-64 II. Vocals are crystal clear from all seating positions, including well off axis. The scene at the beginning of The Avengers where Loki is talking to Thano's "lackey" is a tough test. Many center channels have a hard time making the vocals clear, but the VP150 was fantastic. Every word easily understood.

This is going to be a fun test - what can be done for under $2000 for 5.1 speakers.

I can't believe it!! This can't be the same VP150 that is so maligned elsewhere for its design & driver arrangement!!

It seems that a proper anechoic chamber can be helpful in designing a speaker that works just fine in the real world...

TAM

Last night, we watched "How To Train Your Dragon" and "The Walking Dead".

On How To Train Your Dragon, as with "The Avengers", no matter where one sat in the room, the VP150 was delivering crystal clear dialogue. Four different people mentioned how the dialogue was much better / easier to hear than it was with the Klipsch RC64 II.

The room is largely square - it's 25x24 feet, and used to be a two car garage. Because of it's shape, it's pretty easy to do some serious off axis listening - outside 30 degrees is available.

There is a lot more to do, but based on results of 4 movies plus "The Walking Dead", I think it would be an eye opener (pun intended) to have some blind testing done with people who demand that this VP150 cannot possibly sound good.

To the subwoofer ... The PC2000, so far, has yet to make any "bad noises", and this includes some tough scenes from "Dragon". Scenes that had our Outlaw LFM1-EX pair "chuffing" had no chuffing on the SVS. Keep in mind, this is comparing TWO LFM1-EX to the SVS. The large, 4 inch port in the SVS is doing its job.

Also keep in mind the LFM1-EX has been replaced by the Ultra X-12. The X-12 seems to have addressed some of these issues - may have to get one to test.

The LFM1-EX, even a single, bests the SVS in the mid bass (32-80 Hz) "slam" area.

Overall, I find the SVS to be a better performer, because at no time did it call attention to itself by making a "bad noise". This is a tough test for an $800 sub in a large room.

We should have the latest Omni Mic this week, and we can start posting response curves for both the PC2000 and the VP150 (on and off axis).

Gents - Here are two graphs of two center channel speakers taken at about 35 degrees off axis. This is with 1/6th octave smoothing, no room correction (Audyssey) applied. Keep in mind a 15 to 20 dB window in room is pretty common.

This is one speaker:



This is the other:

Thank you for all the time and effort that you put in to this hobby Craigsub.
I have been enjoying your comparisons for the last year or two that I've been here very, detailed and various.
I also have a SVS PB1000 and it out performs the other subs I've had.
I can chuff and fart them easy but never once on the PB1000, I like lots of Soul/Funk and Hip Hop.

This is how we chill from '93 till! (For Brendo)

The notch at 500hz is covered up by smoothing, but both have it so probably room/position related. Were these gated impulse measurements or pink noise. I'm trying to see how much "room" is being measured.

These are great to learn from!

Serenity - I had looked at 1/24th octave, 1/12th octave and 1/3rd octave (Stereophile uses 1/3rd in its measurements) and settled on 1/6th, as it normally considered the resolution at which we hear.

These are "ungated". Both center channels are posted as raw, in the room, curves. No Audyssey filters were applied.

The response differences are room related, but the exercise is not about measuring the room. The vast majority of rooms have more than a 15 dB "total window" .. or +/- 7.5 dB, in terms of a response curve with a speaker that has the normal +/- 3 dB response curve in an anechoic setting.

The idea that a room will add 4 dB in peaks and subtract 4 dB in nulls is not surprising, true?

In this case, one graph is +/- 6.5 dB off axis, and the other +/- 7 dB off axis. That's actually pretty good in room.

What are we looking for here?

Which speaker, in everyone's opinion, looks as if it has a superior off axis response for real world listening?

Brendo - Thanks for the kind words. This is a lot of fun for me - doing these tests. When the newest Omni Mic arrived yesterday, I was doing the "7 year old on Christmas morning" routine.

One cool feature is the DVD included, which allows sweeps on each channel individually. It is so much easier to use than was Gen 1.

Speaking of SVS - here is the response curve of the PC-2000 with Audyssey applied:



A couple of random thoughts on this - the Marantz 7008/7009/7010 allow for full Audyssey on the subwoofer while bypassing the mains. This is most useful, and "B" stock versions of these receivers can be had for under $1000.

And how cool is it that Axiom allows competitive comparisons of their products to other company's products? There are no "demands" on how I do this from Ian and his staff.

" And how cool is it that Axiom allows competitive comparisons of their products to other company's products? There are no "demands" on how I do this from Ian and his staff. "

craig: That certainly dispells all of the myths, criticism & misinformation that has been spread elsewhere by a few vocal miscreants over the past few years. They must be disappointed...

TAM

I think the biggest doubt about the vp150 is the rumored varied response over a horizontal plane. One member here, who's opinion I trust, stated he had issues with dialogue at certain spots on his couch but not others. Can you report if there are any drastic changes in response over 5 degree horizontal increments. This test is great! The fact that you are doing is makes it better.

As far as the 2 plots, I can only assume they suggest similar capability and great off axis response. Usually the treble range rolls off the further off axis you get. These seem to be going strong. Can you post on axis response for comparison?

I could guess which is the vp150, but oh the horror if I'm wrong.

This is not poking fun at the person whose opinion can be trusted. The people who have stated that they hear a problem at varying intervals have never done a blind listening test. Ask Floyd Toole about the power of suggestion. We read on certain forums how "this tweeter arrangement sucks, and will sound horrible off axis", and we are all susceptible to now hearing these issues.

Many of us remember the audio salesman standing before us, telling us what we should be hearing in a speaker ... "Notice how the female singer sounds like she's here?" ... and of course, we agree.

I have had several people in the room sit in different areas, moving during scenes, all without having a clue which center channel is on. Not one has reported any negative issues. To the contrary, each person hearing the VP150 has raved about it (along with the M3's with which it is paired).

I was, based on all these reports, EXPECTING to hear an issue. I have not. I have listened to several hours of tracks with the VP150, and it has not "suffered" any more when walking back and forth during various scenes than has the Klipsch RC 64 II.

ALL horizontally oriented center channels will have some variance in response as one pans across the room, it's unavoidable.

Let's put this in terms of having fun ... If we took the VP150 and 4 other center channels, and let people (who are certain of the terrible design of the VP150) listen to each, under blind conditions, for an hour, with each betting $1000 he can tell which is the VP150 under these blind conditions ... I would make a lot of money.

That being said, Axiom also makes two center channels that are more "traditional" ... the VP100 and VP160. Personally, I think the VP160 is the "coolest looking", but this is likely a bias of mine based years of being told that the "midrange / tweeter horizontal arrangement between two woofers" is the only way to go.

That is to cool that you have such good performance with the VP150. I my self got the 160 based on the supposed loss of off axis performance, But I couldn't be happier it's a monstrous beauty!!!

The M3 is a fantastic speaker. That's what I started with when I learned of Axiom. So much clean bass from something so small.
{totally out performed the Klipsch that my Axioms replaced} found out I don't like horns to shrill.

Thanks again for your efforts and the amount of detail put in for us forum heads.

Brendo

Hi Craig. Curious as to the distance from speaker to mic in the off axis tests. Also, just my opinion, but I think in a lot or real world situations, off axis seating can often be more than 35 degrees.

Jack - As you have been in out theater room several times, this should make sense to you ... the measurement was taken from the bar at the right side of the room.

This is about 3 feet to the right of the furthest seat to the right of our room.

35 degrees is a pretty extreme angle.

Following Dolby guidelines, 35 degrees places the listener a full chair outside the LCR width. Pretty far off axis I'd say.

Craig, do you think the VP150 easily bests the Klipsch, or is comparable in general performace?

Serenity - After doing some back and forth with the two center channels, it's a very close call. Both are quite articulate, and handle both macro and micro dynamics very well.

I have been doing a lot of back and forth to shake off the initial "low expectations contrasted to initial excellent results" of the VP150.

When one expects to be underwhelmed, sometimes, one is initially more impressed than one would normally be.

It was important to give the VP150 some additional time, and it's still delivering nicely.

I sit 8 feet away from the VP150 v2. It's just "ok". If I move 15" to the left or right on my couch, it sounds like someone threw a (much heavier) carpet over it. I can turn the center gain up 10dB and it still doesn't help. 15" is less than 10 degrees in my set-up.

How far is the VP150 from your MLP, Craig?

Mojo - My usual listening position is 17 feet away from the center channel. I am watching a movie now in which the dialogue is measuring between 54 and 66 dB, and it's crystal clear.

What you are describing is highly unlikely in a properly operating VP150 unless your room is really doing a number on the speaker. Keep in mind the crossover is 2700 Hz. Run a 2700 Hz sinewave in your system, and it is a very high pitch.

Even if the tweeters were disconnected, it should not sound like a "heavy drape" is over the speaker.

You should consider sending your speaker to Axiom for testing.

God morning guys ... My financial services company is growing rapidly, and time for the review process is sparse right now. But a quick update on the LFR-1100's is in order.

They arrived three weeks ago Wednesday, and to put it into the simplest of terms, the combo of the LFR-1100 in stereo with a single EP800 crossed at 40 Hz is the finest music system I have ever heard, let alone owned.

Last night, while listening to Disc Two of "In The Flesh", an SACD from Roger Waters, I was stunned by the sheer scope of the performance. Guitar off to the deep left sound stage, the larger than life drum set sounding as if it was coming from the heavens, the female lead vocalist soaring into her high notes.

The subtle shouts coming from the audience that I have never heard before, even with the Infinity IRS Sigmas, the Legacy Signature SE's ... and other high end speakers.

Bass is so deep ... there is this omnipresent undertone that, again, was never there with other subwoofers. It adds so much to the performance.

It has now become an evening ritual to sneak into the basement every night to listen to a disc - The Cowboy Junkies, Steely Dan, Spiro Gyra, Pink Floyd, Michael Stanley, Rush, Mozart ... etc ... etc ...

One thing about the LFR-1100's ... they don't "snag you" with any one item - no "super treble" ... no mid range bump for "clarity". It's just music. It's neutral, but not sterile.

I wish I had the opportunity to compare the LFRs to other high end speakers. The more I listened to the LFRs at the Axiom bash the more impressed I was.

Well, maybe only half wish. It's a dangerous thing listening to speakers you can't afford.

Sweet! Congrats.

Vindication on some money well spent. Thanks

I will however just have to make do with my pair of EP500's

Matt - I feel your pain at "only" having a pair of EP500's. Which leads to a bit of a discussion regarding subwoofers.

As many of you know, when we had Chase Home Theater, we were building and selling passive 18 inch subwoofers. These subwoofers used an 18 inch driver from Eminence. This driver is now being used by Power Sound Audio in their subs.

Two different customers went onto the PSA site, and both asked if the PSA drivers were the same as our old drivers, and were told it's a completely different woofer. If it is, then PSA cheapened our design. The 18 we used is the best 18 Eminence can build and does build.

For whatever reason, the folks at PSA seem to think it's an "insult" to suggest their driver is the same as ours. To this I say: We published all the T/S parameters on our driver, and still have them. If PSA wishes to do the same, this can be settled.

Here is the funny part - both customers were looking at the PSA 3600i to add to an SS-18.2. PSA had a chance to make both into customers. I personally SENT each of the customers to their web site.

This is one of the weird aspects of audio - the general fighting and self anointed "experts".

This "expert" issue is the next thing I am going to attempt to tackle.

I love the objectivity of the Data-Bass testing.

I grimace at how the Data-Bass testing has made a bunch of guys into forum experts merely because they can add and subtract.

Here is the analysis of a Data-Bass test between two subs:

Sub "A" did 102.5 dB in the CEA-2010 Burst Test at 20 Hz vs. Sub "B" only managing 101 dB. Sub "A" is 1.5 dB better.

That's it. To these guys, it's game over. No mention of sound quality. No looking at long term output over a frequency bandwidth. No blind listening tests. Nothing but an arbitrary number using a tone burst that is 0.325 second long.

CEA-2010 not only does not tell anything about sound quality, it really does not do a very good job telling one about how powerful the subwoofer system is.

Based on the previous post, one might wonder "if a CEA-2010 test is not that great an indicator of performance, what is?"

And that is a legitimate question.

I would look at a few items at Data Bass, with some understanding about what happens in the real world.

Let's take two specific subwoofers - two with which I have auditioned extensively: The Velodyne DD-18 plus and the SVS PB-13 Ultra.

In the CEA-2010 tone burst test, the PB-13 Ultra in its 15 Hz tuning deliver 109.2 dB vs. 103.4 for the Velodyne DD-18+.

In forum world, the PB-13 ultra, at $2000, "wins" easily over the DD-18+ at $6000 retail and $4000 "street price".

Let's look at the data further, and long term output:

From 10-40 Hz, the Velodyne delivered 103.4 dB to the SVS's 103.9 dB.

Here is the main issue - the last 5 to 6 dB in output in the Ultra will have increasing chuffing sounds. It's unavoidable in all of these subwoofers which are ported, especially when one starts plugging some of the ports.

The Ultra, in 15 Hz mode, has less than 20 square inches of port area, and to try to deliver high output in that 10-15 Hz range is to guarantee a lot of chuffing.

In our VS-18.1, we used a 30 square inch port, tuned to 19 Hz, and chuffing was an issue there, too.

In a real world listening situation, the Velodyne will sound better, deeper and more powerful than the PB-13 Ultra.

The good news for SVS fans - for $3000, you can get a pair of SB-13 Ultras. On paper, the PB-13 Ultra delivers about the same 103.8 dB as a pair of SB-13 Ultras, but in reality, the sealed pair will always sound better. There will be no noises. There will just be clean, distortion free bass, well worth the extra $1000.

This brings us to the EP-500/600/800 subwoofers. They are an unusual design, with a DSP setting a flat amplitude regardless the frequency, up to the max output available at that frequency.

I have tried a single EP-800 against an SS-18.2, and the EP800 sounds better, and more powerful, on every scene.

Last night, my kids surprised me, brining over "Jurassic World" to watch. The old man kicked it into high gear - he lugged the VP180 up from the basement, along with the M50's to replace the M3's.

The PC-2000 was swapped out for a pair of EP800's in our room, and I dialed the system in the old fashioned way: A Rad Shack meter and no Audyssey.

As an aside, at 55, I can still easily carry an EP800. Thanks to my son and his weight training regimen he put me on.

During the movie, the kids had a BLAST (they are 22 and 24). They declared the system has never sounded better, and it was the VP180 and the EP800's doing the heavy lifting here.

Velodyne and Axiom use similar thinking in terms of subwoofer performance: Long throw drivers, sealed systems, DSP control (or servo control) and make sure the sub never makes an audibly bad noise while also delivering a linear response.

It works. If you want to listen to a subwoofer and never worry about it failing, bottoming, chuffing .... etc .... looking at the design is far more important than looking at a 0.325 tone burst at Data-Bass.

And guys, this is not a fault of Data-Bass: The info is there, we just need to learn to look at what's important.

If I could change one thing that Josh does there, I would have a 16-80 Hz long term sine wave average. That is THE single most important overall curve - much more telling than 10-40.

Of course, he does have 20-80, and if one looks at it, one will see a lot of consistency between 10-40 and 20-80.

Sealed is "better" for a ton of reasons.

Totally agree people get too hung up on figures, especially gross output, and ignore what matters -in room performance.

FWIW, the loudest members on most issues online have sorely lacking implementation of gear they dont really deserve. The 2ch section on AVS is hilarious, in both camps.

Whats got your pressure up? Those posts came from the blue it seems.

Serenity ... It's more of a "I have been meaning to discuss this for years" than it is a "pressure is up" that got me to post this morning. Plus - I had some free time.

You mentioned implementing gear ... and that reminded me of one gent who is using about $15,000 worth of subwoofers with a pair of 12 year old Rocket 750's - which were decent speakers - but talk about a lack of balance in a system.

I have been amused by these guys for a long time. I have asked this question a few times, on other forums, for years, and never get an answer.

The question: When does sound quality start to matter? If SPL is "everything", then we should all buy Cerwin Vega and call it a day.

This whole idea that "this subwoofer is 0.5 dB better" based on a chart is just ... wrong.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine a while back touching on this very topic. He does a lot of DJ work in his spare time and we got to talking about some of the similarities/differences between pro equipment and home audio equipment. My opinion was, and he agreed, that DJ's care mostly about spl as that is more important, where HT guys generally prioritize sound quality first.

Craig, I love that you're NOT one of those who only judge subs by their output(only) and appreciate your efforts to inform. If a sub plays loud but makes all kinds of unwanted noise, what is the point? marketing? our sub is better 'cause it's louder? lol!

...there are car companies doing the same thing with peak hp numbers because it sells.

There is some hope in the forum world - some guys on AVS are actually talking about long term output over CEA-2010 burst tests.

There is still no one discussing how these high output ported subs will chuff long before the driver bottoms out.

I was working with RE Audio in looking at one of their OEM 18's that had about 30 MM of X-max (one way).

The engineers at RE suggested tuning to about 28 Hz with a port area of about 80 square inches to avoid tuning. When we talked about getting full output at 16 Hz, they flat out told me to go with dual sealed subs and avoid the noise, or else build a 30 cubic foot cabinet with about 140 square inches of port area.

In our own line up, even though the big vented "VS-18.1" was 6 dB less powerful in the CEA-2010 burst (at 20 Hz) than the dual driver 18 inch sealed SS-18.2, in long term output at 20 Hz they were equal, with the dual driver extending nicely to 10 Hz and the overall output and slam dusting the vented.

Even the single driver SS-18.1 was close in a real room.

What does this have to do with the tests here? During my hiatus as a hobbyist, while trying to get partners and vendors to actually work (they didn't), Axiom took all the top end designs, reworked the woofer into a more powerful unit, and made them sealed.

The other thing, based on listening tests here, that the guys (and Debbie) did was to do a lot of blind listening tests to help with the DSP-AMP-Driver-Enclosure interface.

Over the weekend, I flipped back and forth between the SS-18.2, the EP800 and the PC2000 on "The Walking Dead" on HD. There was this ever present bass line - a pulsing - that was distinct and in your chest. It was not loud, it was an under current.

The PC2000 made a "lump" sound. The SS-18.2 made a "thump" sound. The EP-800 made a "Hit" sound. It was subtly felt, and added to the menacing scene.

This is the hardest part of reviewing these types of products: I can't post a chart that shows how this "hit" was far better sounding than a "lump" or "thump". Everyone here noticed the difference.

This pattern has repeated itself over and over. On Steely Dan's 2 Against Nature, The kick drum is so deep and tight, the EP800 makes it into a different performance than even the SS-18.2.

The EP500/600/800 will never "win" a "most SPL for the $$$". It will win for those who are willing to spend the extra $$$ to get the best sounding bass.

The subwoofer that I would love to directly do an A/B with the EP800 would be either a JL Audio Fathom 212 or a Velodyne DD-18 plus. Another consideration would be a JTR Captivator S1. Yet another would be a pair of the SB13 Ultras.

Any thoughts?

Some "worse than typo" moments from the previous post, paragraphs 4 and 5 should have been (changed words in all CAPS):

The engineers at RE suggested tuning to about 28 Hz with a port area of about 80 square inches to avoid CHUFFING. When we talked about getting full output at 16 Hz, they flat out told me to go with dual sealed subs and avoid the noise, or else build a 30 cubic foot cabinet with about 140 square inches of port area.

In our own line up, even though the big vented "VS-18.1" was 6 dB MORE powerful in the CEA-2010 burst (at 20 Hz) than the dual driver 18 inch sealed SS-18.2, in long term output at 20 Hz they were equal, with the dual driver extending nicely to 10 Hz and the overall output and slam dusting the vented.

Love to suggest the scene where Coop enters the black hole in interstellar. Lots of below 20hz content there!

Should be fun with the 800.

It is nice to finally see an intelligent, common sense approach to assessing what is important in subwoofers. It doesn't happen very often elsewhere.

Superb sound quality with effortless execution is why I purchased 4 Axiom subs (2X400s & 2X800s) over the past couple of years. In contrast to some others that I've heard, they just sound 'right' to me & put out more than enough 'horsepower' for my Music & HT requirements...

TAM

Craig,

Having heard your LFR 1100 and dual EP800 setup driven by ADA's at the 35th, I have a new respect for both your reviews and your hearing! LOL

Tom - You were a bit dubious that the review process here would be an honest look at Axiom products. Based on what you were used to seeing in the forum world when it came to all things Axiom, your doubts were understandable. The EP800 really is a remarkable subwoofer. It's pretty funny how few companies have even responded to requests that I BUY a subwoofer for testing. Apparently, some companies would rather give a free review sample to someone the company's owner(s) KNOW will give a glowing review vs. a test here that is not going to be a "puff piece".

Mike - Thanks for the kind words. It was fun meeting all of you guys - and I wish more could have attended.

The LFR-1100's are a great listen every night. Last night was a full run of The Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Session". On particular event stood out ... the cymbals. I have listened to a lot of speakers, and the cymbal reproduction has always been one of the tougher tests. While deep into listening, it hit me ... I was not hearing speakers playing cymbals. I was hearing cymbals. It was palpable, and brought me out of the "relaxed into it" state and needing to hear the track again.

It's these occasional moments of "never heard THAT before" that make these speakers a special listening treat.

Yes, Trinity Sessions was a fabulous album. I still find their version of Sweet Jane to be rather hypnotic. The church it was recorded in is also quite a sight to see



I am sure that the acoustics inside the church gave that album it's warmth.

Matt - That is a beautiful picture. The acoustics of the church are captured quite well by the single microphone used (a single microphone is the best way to record a small ensemble in an arena such as the Holy Trinity Church).

Thanks for finding this shot - magnificent.

To hear the pipe organ in that place! Great pic.

Guys - In addition to the PC-2000 which is already here, an Axiom EP-350 V.4 and a Klipsch R115-SW have been ordered.

The EP-350 V.4 is going to be interesting, since the last actual test on one was done, the sub has a new amp, enclosure, port system and driver.

The Klipsch, on paper, is formidable: 75 pounds, large enclosure, 15 inch driver with what looks to be a surround that suggest pretty long excursion.

talking about subs.. I took the cover off of mine and it looks like the driver moves maybe 1mm. I know the unit is working as it I do some of the sound tone tests the room can shake with the lower frequencies, but it just doesn't really get loud.

I was rather disappointed with the 1812 test as it sounded like it did nothing over what the LFR1100's were giving me. But it does do far more for giving the lower frequencies but not really to the point of a visceral feeling. Perhaps I did need the 800's for that.

Towers with lower bass, a beautiful thing.

Guys - I opened a thread about $1000 subwoofers on Home Theater Forum. It can be found here:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/343857-under-1000-subwoofer-review-thread/

Using an independent forum is better suited for testing a variety of products. To date, in addition to the SVS PC-2000, we have the Axiom EP-350 and Klipsch R115-SW on the way.

Participation in the HTF thread is encouraged.

For a quick update: The Klipsch R115SW arrived last night. It will get dialed into the system over the weekend, and testing will start on it.

We are waiting the shipping notice on the EP350, and also for a call back from Hsu Research. Kevin (from Hsu) called Monday, and wanted to talk to Poh about which subwoofer he wants tested. It will probably be the VTF-3 Mark V. As soon as I hear back, the info will be posted.

And every well known subwoofer company has been contacted. In each contact, the company was invited to participate by letting me purchase a subwoofer.

If your favorite subwoofer company is not tested, it's because the owner(s) declined to be involved.

I'm looking forward to the tests you mention in the other thread. Very cool Craig!

Craig, it appears the Klipsch sub is raising some eyebrows.

The Klipsch is a very good subwoofer, especially in its price class. I ordered a 2nd just to see what two would do in a large room. This is some fun stuff!

Guys - The Axiom EP-350 has shipped, and should arrive next Tuesday. A Hsu VTF-3 Mark V has also been ordered, and should be here the following week.