Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater New Member Here with a Question About Upgrading

New member here and have a question for all the experts here..

I became the proud owner of a new 65” Hitachi Ultravision HDTV unit in December of last year based on my wife and I’s avid watching of widescreen DVD’s. After I found out the real scoop on high def. I signed up for the VOOM satellite service so I could fully utilize the HD potential of my new set.

About a month before I bought the Hitachi I upgraded my age old surround sound system with one of the Onkyo HTS-760 HTB’s after a lot of research and reviews. At the time this unit was perfect for my budget since I was about to invest in my new TV. After getting everything settled in and calibrated I just wasn’t 100% satisfied with the low end so back to the net for research I went. Two weeks ago I said hello to my latest upgrade - a SVS 20-39 PC+ sub. Now THAT’S more like it.

Now since all of your understand what the “upgrade” fever is all about you can relate with me. After reading thru many of the home theater forums online I kept seeing all the hoopla about the Axiom speakers and now that little voice starts telling me this is something I should look into. So thus that brings me here. Now that I have bored you with my story here is my question.

The fronts and center speakers of the HTS-760 have basically the same speaker elements as the M22’s and the VP100. I do realize that just because a speaker has the same amount of elements doesn’t mean they will sound the same. I keep seeing that most HT users equipment list contains higher end stuff so some of you may not have even heard any of the “low end” stuff but thought I would ask anyway. Have any of you ever heard the fronts and center of the Onkyo 760 and can tell me if the M22 and VP100 would give me any improvement? I just have this gut feeling that the Axiom’s will in fact give me a better sound than what I have now due to them containing better drivers and are probably a better built box.

The rear surrounds I won’t even ask about since there are more speaker elements in the Axiom QS4’s and am sure they would definitely be an improvement.

Most of our usage will be 75% HT and 25% music. I was at first considering the M60’s but as you see from my setup here:

http://www.stampcometal.com/files/tvwithsub.jpg

I really don’t have room to place the towers plus with my SVS Sub I have the low end covered. My living room is 20x20 with a vaulted ceiling that starts at 8’ and rises to 14’ and what I have in place now I feel does a real nice job. As I found with the SVS, until you hear something better you never realize what you’ve been missing all along.

If I do go with the Axiom fronts/center I will of course have to replace my 3 rears to complete the whole matched set.

I wish someone had warned me about how addicting all this HDTV/HT stuff was going to be and I might have side stepped it..Yeah right...Who am I kidding?

Thanks for sticking with me thru all my ramblings.

Any advice or “arm pulling” greatly appreciated.

Rick

Hi Rick,

Welcome!

Okay, Ray, I'll hold him and you go get the arm stretcher.

Well, Rick, you've come to the right place. Having repented from the error of your HTIB ways, and having embraced the true spiritual meaning of SVS bass, you are now poised to bask in the glory of Axiom enlightenment. Can I get a Hallelujah, brothers and sisters?!?!

[Freak mode off].

Gorgeous TV.

You're going to have to consider a couple other things. First, you really need to try to get your main (front L/R) speakers out of the entertainment center. Your current positioning is almost certainly generating some nasty reflections and refractions, and compromising the imaging and clarity. So, even if you step up to Axioms, you really should consider stands or floorstanders - anything to get the speakers out of that "secondary box" and allow them to breathe free.

Second, that Onkyo head unit looks like a really terrific HTIB. I looked at the specs, and it seems to be a nice unit. But you know what Rex Stout said - there are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up. I can't help but think that, even if you get the Axioms, you would ALSO notice a signficant, audible improvement by going to a dedicated receiver. It's pretty easy for manufacturers to creatively interpret power ratings and frequency response.

However, in terms of tempering the inevitable upgradeitis path to WAF-friendly levels, I think your plan to upgrade the speakers first is a great approach.

AND you will notice a huge difference between the Axioms and the current Onkyo speakers. I'm bad at explaining scietific principles (although we have forum members who excel at it). And even if I could, your ears are the only way to know The Truth. What I can tell you is that Axiom makes only speakers, and my experience is that they do it very, very well. You will be amazed at the difference. It will be every bit as stunning as your SVS epiphany.

Talk to the folks at Axiom. They will help you design a system to meet your current budget and future needs. Browse the forums. You'll find lots of happy (and weird) people here.

Like Tom said, you need to get those L/R speakers out of the entertainment unit. Having them standing upright in the open would likely be a huge improvement.

Tom & Will..

Thanks for your feedback regarding my post. What you had to say was what I had already figured the answers would be..

Thought I would also throw out another bone and see what ideas I could get regarding selling a portion of my current/old setup.

Since I would be replacing the entire speaker system that came with my HTS-760 I would be looking to get rid of the 7 speakers that came with it as well as my 3 year old Onkyo TX-DS747 receiver (only a 5.1 with no DTS). I look back and I can't believe I paid $700 for that thing. (some fool on Ebay has one listed for $700. .)

Any ideas as to what would be a fair asking price for the receiver/speakers as a package?

Thought I would try to see if I can find a buyer for those before ordering the Axiom's and figured you guys would have a better feel for a fair price on used equipment.

Thanks again..
Rick

Rick,

You're following a similar path to what I took. I started out a few years ago with a Panasonic mini system, upgraded to a Kenwood HTIB (HTB-544) which gave me a taste of real performance but left me wanting more, and then ultimately upgraded to Axiom M22's, VP150, QS8's and SVS sub (plus a H/K AVR520 receiver).

You already have the sub part down, and I'd say you should definitely upgrade the rest if that's what you want to do. Your Onkyo speakers, like the Kenwood speakers, can sound pretty good. The designs are not that different from Axioms for example. But the overall performance of the Axioms far surpasses any HTIB speakers. Plus, good subs like SVS and HSU just scream for comparable speakers like Axiom. I'd say go for it without hesitation.

I was in the same shoes. my room is smaller , 12x14. Since i listen to music more often than watching movie (70/30), i opt for M60Ti. I don't want to keep upgrading later on. The problem is i have to move speakers around (47 lbs each) to get the good sound image. I eventually will get a sub ( i think i go for HSU STF-2 ). As most people here will suggest you (including me ) that M22ti + Sub will be great. I got M60 yesterday and I love the sound...but i will upgrade my receiver to the Outlaw 950/7100 (pream/am).

Hey Rick,

Now, wait a minute here....

I don't know squat about reselling old gear. I just use mine until it goes terminal and then I use it to keep my dinghy from moving during beer drinking, er, fishing season. Sorry. But, in your shoes, I would sell the HTIB as a set; I'll bet you can get some value for it.

BUT, that Onkyo TX-DS747 is a pretty darn nice unit that you paid good money for. It undoubtedly has better amplification electronics than the HTIB rig. Is it "broken" in any way? It does Dolby Digital, right? (decodes a coax or optical digital input signal) It has five channels of amplification, right? Do you have another DVD player besides the one in the HTIB?

Let's reassess here, especially in light of that asset, Axiom's surround speaker design, and other forum members' experiences with 5.1 vs. 7.1.

The Axiom surrounds are superb. I have the QS8's and am delighted. As many folks have pointed out, they are very flexible relative to placement, and the quadpolar design is very enveloping.

I bet that 5.1 with the Axioms is going to present you with not only better tone but also better "Surround" than the 6.1 with those directional Onkyo's you are currently using. I don't think that there is much (any?) discrete 6.1 material right now; the only thing the 6th channel is doing for you is matrixing the other surrounds to give you a fuller rear sound stage. Depending upon your room and listening habits, it may not negatively impact you to "downsize" to 5.1 with the Axioms.

One of the board sages (Craig aka spiffnme) has terrific Rotel gear (no, not the canned tomatoes and peppers, which are yummy, but don't have good frequency response). He went from 5.1 to 7.1; for him, the difference was not a life changing event. I'm sure he'll chime in, especially if I've misquoted him.

Which leaves us with - is DTS the only other "deficit" of the Onkyo 747? My experience (and I'm just a guy sitting on my couch drinking a beer) is that the DTS soundtrack of most movies is not THAT much better than the Dolby Digital soundtrack. Not enough to warrant trashing that big Onk at this time anyway.

Here's what I'd do:
1. Pack up and sell the 760 HTIB.
2. Buy another DVD player if you have to. Don't go off the deep end. Newer stuff is becoming available (including universal player changers), and everything is getting cheaper and better all the time.
3. Buy as much Axiom as you can at this time and hook it up to your Onkyo 747.

If you are on a budget and want to continue to have upgradeitis, you would be thrilled, THRILLED I tell you, with M22's and some stands, VP100 and QS4's. If you have more to spend, want your face to hurt from smiling so much, don't want to wonder "what if", don't care if you neglect to bathe because you can't tear yourself away from the media room, etc. buy the M60's, VP150 and QS8's. Combined with your SVS, you'd be a really happy camper for many years to come.

4. THEN decide when to make the leap to a new receiver and a 6.1 or 7.1 setup.

Of course, all this is moot if your 747 does not do Dolby Digital. But I think it does.

Anybody mix Ro-Tel with cream cheese? Yum. Lunchtime.

Tom,

Man are you a stand up comedian for living? If not, you ought to be. I have laughed my a** off from your two posts in this thread.

There is nothing wrong with the Onkyo DS747. I only pulled it when I got the new HTIB unit. I do have to agree that I really can't tell any difference between a DTS and Dolby 5.1 mix. I DO know that the old 747 is like a sack of cement. That thing is HEAVY. The one that came in the 760 package I could lift with one hand. In my opinion heavy would be the first sign of "better"..no?

Yes the old 747 has plenty of optical/coax digital inputs and 5.1 speaker outputs which includes a separate output line for the sub..

The 760 did not come with a DVD player. I have a Panasonic HS2 DVD Recorder that I use for DVD playing so that's not even an issue.

Your idea about selling ALL of the HTIB set may not be a bad one since now that you have got me to thinking the only thing that the new unit really offered over the old one was 6.1 and DTS and from what you are saying with two of the Axiom's in back I may not even miss the back center I had.

What I HAD planned on buying regarding the Axioms was the M22's, VP150 center, and QS4's for the back. That was going to total about $1200 since I needed 3 of the QS4's but if I go back to my 5.1 unit I can drop the third rear and come in at $1060. Sell my 760 for $400 (it's only about 4 moths old) so I will end up having about $660 in the Axiom's in the end. Not a bad tradeoff if you ask me!

As much as I would like to go whole hog with the M60,V150 and QS8 combo I still have my TV to pay off by next January so I will try to keep it at reasonable boundry (is that word even allowed in a HT forum?) Besides as you can see from the link to the pic of my setup I don't have anymore room to the left (front door) or right (coat closet)to place the M60's so the M22's will have to do. But now that I think of it I could get two QS8's for the same money I was going to spend on the 3 of the QS4's...(there goes that voice again..hush up now). No the two QS4's will work fine.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all you have. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside looking in to help keep us on track..

Have a cold one for me!!
Rick

OK...just read through this thread, and looked at your picture. (Nice looking setup btw!!!)

You say you have no room for the M60ti's, but you think you have room for the M22's? Where are you going to put the M22's? They'd be on stands I assume? I'm a bit confused on that point.

Is there ANY place else you can put the SVS? In the rear of the room? In a corner? The sub can be put pretty much anywhere and still sound good. If you can move the sub, then you can put the M60's or M22's on either side of your ET center.

I also agree, that your old "sack of cement" receiver will work perfectly. With the QS series surrounds, 5.1 will be terrific.

Rick,

A cold WHAT, exactly? Is that anything like a "wet willie"? Have you SEEN "the beer thread" in the Advice forum?

Thanks for the kind words. You're more interesting than my work today. Ray3 is generally funnier than I am, but he has not yet discovered you as a straight man. Plus, I don't have to shovel snow all winter like he does. bwahahaha.

I have read in several places that weight of amplifiers is indeed a sign of quality. This is America. Less is not more, more is more.

I can't really see from the picture what is to the sides of the SVS on the left and the plant/table on the right. You do seem to have a wonderful family arrayed along the top. Good on you.

However, you've still got speaker placement issues. Again, I strongly urge you to find a way to get the mains out of the entertainment center. And if you absolutely cannot do that, you may not be able to fit M22's in those same holes; the Onkyo site says your current fronts are 16.5" tall (or "wide" as you have them on their sides). It looks like they fill that space pretty full. The M22's are 19.7" according to the Axiom site. Better measure. It looks like an M22 on a stand would fit just fine right in front of that water heater, er, subwoofer. And that is a cute little table thing on the right, but really, I'll bet it doesn't produce high notes very well. And if you've got room for stands, you've got room for floorstanders...

Or you could wall-mount them perhaps. Or go to the M2.

The M22 is a well-loved speaker, and many forum regulars have paired it with SVS products, and simply will not shut up about how happy they are. You'll be delighted too.

Keep in mind the Factory Outlet products; you wait a bit, but save 10% and hardly anyone can find "the blemish". I certainly couldn't on either pair I bought. Likewise, I believe that if you order 5 or more pieces at the same time, they give you an additional discount. But I just live here, I don't work here. Call and talk to somebody at Axiom about your room configuration, especially relative to the surround choice.

And whatever you decide, stick around the forum.