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#421593 - 12/18/16 04:24 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2015
Loc: Canada
Fwiw I have had really good luck without an atmos reciever.
My speaker hieghts increase as you go further back in the room.
I often get very locatable sound as an object travels through the room. Think of the spears thrown at the start of Star Trek or bullets flying in Band of Brothers.
I love it.
My M80's are on the floor with my QS8's just above the height of the lazy boys back with the rear surround QS4's at ear height for the rear row. The rear row is elevated 2' off the floor.
It works very nicely.
If I had a ceiling height of even 8' I'd already own in ceilings.
I am watching the refurb page for a few pair, not that I have the cash atm. I still want them.


Edited by brwsaw (12/18/16 04:26 PM)
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#421612 - 12/19/16 04:06 AM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5396
Loc: Marion, IA
"Atmos enabled" speakers are for people like you that don't want to install ceiling speakers for whatever reason. That said, people serious about the audio and stepping into immersive audio (Atmos and DTS:X) wouldn't touch Atmos Enabled speakers with a 10 foot pole. Sending sound up to the ceiling, and bouncing it down to wherever that happens to be (the speakers have a fixed angle on them) just isn't a great experience. I mean, it DOES work (sort of) and is better than a poke in the eye, but if you can find the way for ceiling speakers, do it. I put on-wall Axiom M3s up on my ceiling since I didn't want to cut large holes for the in-ceiling M3s (I still ran the wires in the ceiling).

I think that only 2 manufacturers at CEDIA were even showing Atmos Enabled speakers this past year. They were pretty much the "cheaper" brands that were doing it. By cheaper, I mean Pioneer had a $800 MSRP 7.1.4 speaker setup. That is ELEVEN speakers and a sub for $800. CHEAP.

Again, sometimes you gotta do whatchya gotta do, but just know that you will get, at best, 75% of the effect vs. in (or on) ceiling speakers. If anything is odd about your room (vaulted ceilings, wrong seating position in relationship to Atmos Enabled speaker placement and "the bounce" and so forth) that it will be even less effective.
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#421685 - 12/24/16 05:46 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13675
Loc: Iowa
Pioneers Andrew Jones speaker engineer begs to differ, I am just starting to do a little research on this subject, yeah I know way behind the times. smile Since I have a finished home theater room, would be difficult to rerun speaker wires to ceiling locactions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBHDtPu9UJk&t=240s
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#421718 - 12/26/16 12:40 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5396
Loc: Marion, IA
Pioneer... I have a few comments about their speakers. (Keep in mind that I was a big fan or Pioneer receivers for many years. they have a place, but as I've been able to keep "upping" my receiver and gear, I can't imagine going back to Pioneer except for a true budget system).

1) Pioneer only pushes their Atmos modules for Atmos setups. they offer in-ceiling speakers, but they are mostly (if not all) designs from before Atmos, so they certainly aren't going to make a video about a better method for Atmos when they don't advertise or market anything other than upfiring.

2a) Pioneer is not exactly the leader in speaker quality

2b) Pioneer makes speaker systems designed for low/lower budget consumers (not generally people that actually care a lot about uncompromising sound)

3) At CEDIA 2015 only 1 mid-level or better speaker on display was using upfiring Atmos modules (Triad)

4) At CEDIA 2016 only the lower end systems demo'd upfiring Atmos speakers, everyone else was using overheads

5) Per Pioneer's own engineer in the video, he talks about "being able to use the same 'driver' as your main speakers" when describing Atmos modules. I'm doing that too with my overheads, but instead of being limited to some tiny 4" max sized driver, I have 6.5" and can get a lot more of the frequency range that you just can't get with the tiny speakers in most Atmos modules.

6) Ceiling heights, ceiling angles like vaults, trays, etc (if any), as well as how close or far you are from the Atmos modules impact how precise/diffused the sound is, as well as if the sound simply bounced up and over (past) you, or up and down in front of you, etc. You are locked in with where the modules go since they are on top of your existing speakers, so that means you need to be able to move your seating or those speakers, and even then you are still in for a mess if your ceiling isn't flat.

Atmos modules were, as noted by several companies at CEDIA 2016 (and 2015) as a way to not "freak out" consumers with speakers on their ceilings, plus running wires along walls is generally considered easier for most people than going up into the ceiling. It was done to give people an option who are just getting into the concept, but as time progresses, we are seeing more and more companies actually dropping their Atmos modules from their line-up, or at least pushing them to the back of their recommendation list in favor of overhead speakers.

Now if you have a perfect box of a room that has a flat ceiling and seating that can accommodate a perfect 30* angle from Atmos modules up and then down onto the listening area, then go for it. You will still be limited to only getting down to 120-150Hz depending on the module, and that is far from the recommended "full range" that Dolby says is ideal (even if that limit is still within their own "Atmos module spec."

Even with proper bass management, you are really limited in what sound energy can come out of an Atmos module. If I was doing things over again from scratch and could make my own speakers, I would go with something with a larger 8" or possibly even a 10" woofer for overhead. D+M (Denon/Marantz) had a demo with 10" overheads at CEDIA 2016 and they ran a Transformers demo both with and without bass management/subs. You could still "feel" the sound going overhead in one of the scenes because it was still in the directional frequencies, but low enough to feel the "punch."

Many people elsewhere have equated Atmos enabled speakers to being usable, but not good/great. Some of my favorite quotes from the Atmos thread at AVS in response to Atmos enables speakers are "something that will work, but then again so will a soundbar" or "something that will work, but then again so do Bose cubes."


That being said, don't be afraid to put holes in your ceiling to run speaker wires. My ceiling has clips and hat channel running between my joists, 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with GreenGlue inbetween, and I still was able to fish wires up, repair the holes, and you can not tell at all. Was it fun to do? Nope. Not at all. It was messy, and there were several points where I was really frustrated, but I got it done.
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#421719 - 12/26/16 01:01 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13675
Loc: Iowa
Sounds like good information Nick, and what I'm finding in a few days of research. To be honest I need to update my projector first I think. Believe it or not I'm still using my Sanyo Z2, lol Everyone says it still has a great picture at 720P. So I have been researching projectors. Also probably need to figure out what I will do with my Denon 3808ci, still decent AVR but doesn't have latest bells/whistles. Really using it as a Pre though since my Outlaw drives my 7 current speakers. The Marantz 7702mkii preamp from outlaw seems like a decent 11.2 preamp at a killer price, but would have to get more amplifiers for 2-4 additional ceiling speakers. I don't care about HEOS or whatever they call it and the 7703 is about a grand higher in price. Receivers with 11.2 seem very expensive and it would be a waste it seems as I would only be using 4 channels from the receiver for the ceiling speakers. To me the whole ATMOS think kinda sucks for people that have existing theaters finished with 5.x or 7.x. So many years people were told to not go with ceiling speakers and even pushed surrounds like the Q's to envelope you in the experience, now everyone is saying go with direct radiating bookshelves, arggg. To be honest I recently saw Rogue One at Jordan XD theater and I was not impressed with the sound. There was no LFE for the most part, just a bunch of bookshelfs surrounding the walls/ceiling bombarding you with mids/highs. Just seemed like to much with no seperation of the surround affects. What to do... smile
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#421720 - 12/26/16 01:49 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
Newf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 759
Loc: NL
Atmos when done right should blow you away. I'm finding the biggest issue with Atmos isn't the equipment, it's the person making the soundtrack. They don't know how to use ceilings speakers yet and while there are plenty of movies in Atmos, few really sound great. Of course Atmos can also upmix normal DD and DTS which also sounds great but the fact of the mattter is, that person mixing that sound on that blu ray needs to be doing a better job! I'd also skip doing 5.2.4, and go straight to 7.2.4. All direct firing.

I'm using Axiom in Ceiling M3's with adjustable tweeters. Very capable for Atmos.


Edited by newf (12/26/16 01:51 PM)
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#421724 - 12/26/16 03:06 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2015
Loc: Canada
Can anyone provide a quote from Dolby, one available online, that states tweeters should be aimed?
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#421727 - 12/26/16 07:26 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: brwsaw]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6288
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By brwsaw
Can anyone provide a quote from Dolby, one available online, that states tweeters should be aimed?

Here's what I found:

Quote:
If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position.

Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say "plus or minus what". It does mention that expected ceiling height is 2-3x standard ear height, or ~8-12 feet, which I imagine relatively few HT rooms actually allow.

It seems to be a function of ceiling height among other things... if your ceiling is high enough then there's a reasonable chance you could find speakers with sufficiently wide dispersion to cover the listening positions without aiming, but in most rooms you are going to end up wanting to aim. Seems a lot like the "QS or directional rear" question where the answer is clearly "it depends".

I never know what to put for title

BTW I am also still enjoying my Sanyo 720p and have no plans to upgrade until I use up some more of the bulb life. Haven't even used up the first bulb yet and still have the spare to think about...

Since my HT room has a vaulted ceiling with 45 degree angles going up to a point it occurred to me that I could hang the ceiling speakers from wires and not have to put any holes in walls/ceiling (weiling ?)...


Edited by bridgman (12/26/16 07:49 PM)
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#421730 - 12/26/16 07:59 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
Gr8_White_North Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 2281
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Bridgeman I hope you try this , I often see people with the same constrictions and I have often pontificated about just such a solution. I look forward to your results.
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#421732 - 12/26/16 08:19 PM Re: Using QS 4 for Atmos speakers [Re: fish]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13675
Loc: Iowa
Yeah, I'm on my second bulb for my Z2, I think the first one lasted around 10yrs, lol. Recently I upgraded my DirecTV DVR and HD receivers and now the Z2 won't handshake anything over 480 with the new HD Mini. Luckily I was able to adjust my Denon to upconvert to 720 but I don't think the picture is as good as when it was coming from my old Direct HD box.
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