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#429724 - 07/30/18 10:57 AM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: bridgman]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
Originally Posted By bridgman
Originally Posted By Gr8_White_North
I think landru is looking for the trickle down effect of the tech used in the Bryston line.

I do sometimes wonder if I could trade in some Axioms for a pair of Mini-T's smile


Craig Chase says the M5HP with a sealed Axiom sub is on par with the best $10K speakers he's heard. So maybe that trio is better than Mini-Ts.

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#429726 - 07/30/18 09:51 PM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Mojo]
bridgman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6188
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By Mojo
Craig Chase says the M5HP with a sealed Axiom sub is on par with the best $10K speakers he's heard. So maybe that trio is better than Mini-Ts.

It wouldn't surprise me - crossing over at 100 Hz or so would knock off the worst of the bass bump and the rest of the frequency response is pretty good.

Mini-T

M5HP

I messed around with port plugs without much success, but I should probably try the official ones instead of random foam bits I had lying around.

I still have an overwhelming urge to take a Sawz-all to one of my M5HP pairs and extend the cabinet a bit to lower the tuning frequency by about 15 Hz (I can live without being able to play loud), but they both have such nice veneer I can't bring myself to do it. Besides, I don't have time and I keep forgetting the math.

Axiom's FR curves are a few years newer than the SoundStage ones and look flatter - guessing there might have been some tweaking over time.

My recollection is that Axiom's published curves generally come pretty close to SoundStage's if the same year of speaker is measured, although I guess they may do different things for handling the lowest frequencies.

Thought I remembered someone saying that both chambers were good down to ~80Hz or so, but Axiom has a "subwoofers in space" tower and I don't know what NRC does (but I bet it involves a government-sized parking lot.

I should probably bite the bullet and try some LFR's - they probably have some of the Bryston goodness as well as all the omni goodness - but I still really want to be able to separate all that stuff out in my own head.

I guess I could try LFR's and turn off the amp powering the back half... hmm.


Edited by bridgman (07/30/18 10:00 PM)
_________________________
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
LFR1100

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#429730 - 07/31/18 07:49 AM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
The NRC reported a 9dB swing in the listening window amplitude between ~80 to ~160 Hz. Also the impedance magnitude above 1 KHz looks very different from the one published on the Axiom site.

Ian says the chamber at the NRC will almost never be accurate below 150 Hz as they can’t write a correction curve for each model. He put the tower up so he could measure each model in 4pi and then write a chamber correction curve that was accurate for that model. Even then it is only truly accurate at the amplitude you write the correction for. As for the impedance curve, he says maybe the ferro fluid was not up to temperature. Temperature and ferro fluid is a big deal. When he worked at the NRC, he had to remove all the tweeters from the samples and make sure they were in the front of the car or he would lose a few hours warming the magnets up on heaters.

Very interesting about the ferro fluid. I have noticed and reported on these boards what I believe to be ambient temperature-related changes in my listening sessions. The ferro fluid may be one of the reasons.


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#429731 - 07/31/18 11:16 AM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Mojo]
bridgman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6188
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By Mojo
As for the impedance curve, he says maybe the ferro fluid was not up to temperature. Temperature and ferro fluid is a big deal.

LOL - so there is something to this "speaker break in" thing after all smile

I'm kidding !!!

Seriously, thanks for the post - fills some important gaps in what I remember.


Edited by bridgman (07/31/18 11:16 AM)
_________________________
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
LFR1100

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#429732 - 07/31/18 01:49 PM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
How our brain interprets sound is ultimately a chemical process which is impacted by more than anyone currently understands. Intestinal peptides for example play a big role and those are controlled by your lifestyle (eating, exercising, sleeping, etc). When we figure out exactly how our brain interprets sound, we won't need room correction; we'll be able to "take a pill".

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#431872 - 04/16/19 10:31 PM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
So all the votes are in. The M5HP is a winner. My M5HPs, with their front baffles placed 5 feet from my front wall, render a completely 3D, holographic soundstage behind them across the 20 foot width. In my 4200 cu. ft. room, the M5s acoustically "disappear". Listeners who inspect the back of my M5s are shocked to find nothing more than puckered sphincters.

Every v4 product I have is truly spectacular.

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#431874 - 04/17/19 09:00 AM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
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I was listening to the difference between my M5s and M100s this morning. The M5s carve these super sharp images in the soundscape behind them and at the same time, acoustically disappear. The images from the M100s are bolder, bigger and more dynamic and don't disappear as well acoustically unless I turn up the volume a bunch. Also as I've said before many times, the M100s sound closer to reality. It's real tough to choose between them.

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#431878 - 04/18/19 02:46 PM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
Alan, help me. What do I do? Do I go to active LFRs?

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#431882 - 04/18/19 09:12 PM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
bridgman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6188
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I would be very nice to your M5HPs and enjoy them laugh
_________________________
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
LFR1100

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#431883 - 04/19/19 09:44 AM Re: Introducing the M5 and QS10 [Re: Ian]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
That's wise advice, John. My problem is v4 has introduced me to the wide, deep, layered and nuanced soundstage I've been looking for since around 2012. I can't see how this experience can be further improved with passive cross-overs. I maintain Axiom has taken the current architecture as far as it can. I want to believe active speakers will heighten the experience and LFRs more so.

My experience with omni-directional speakers from Bose, Mirage and KEF has not been good though. I don't want the so-called "stereo everywhere" effect but I can see how certain applications benefit from it. I want stereo at my MLP only and I want that stereo stage to be as wide, deep and layered as it can possibly be with sharply defined images and blackness (silence) in between with audibly invisible speakers. I get that with all my v4 and find that both my M3 and M5 disappear. The M100 disappears less well but it has the advantage of higher fidelity (instrument and voice realism).

This disappearing act is vastly important to me as is the soundstage I described. Power handling and dynamics are secondary. I would gladly take an M3, with its lower fidelity, over an active LFR, if that M3 was better in the disappearing act and soundstage departments.

I also have some emotional concerns about even trying LFRs or active LFRs. I hold both Ian and Andrew in very high regard. I have very private reasons for feeling this way about them but let's just say you'd have to be in product design, like me, to fully understand why. If I listen to the active LFRs and they offer no or only a minor improvement in the features I really care about, I will be shattered. Shattered because this journey with the Family of Curves, the LFRs, and now the active LFRs, was a long and painful one and most likely not over. For it to lead to a dead end with active LFRs would be too much for me.

I can take the blue pill and happily live with my passive v4. I can take the red pill, go down the rabbit hole and emerge in some warped space-time that will scramble my emotions. I suppose maybe there's a green pill that will lead me into active but not LFR land.


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