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#424924 - 04/13/17 01:29 PM More power to M100,s or EP800?
Tom_in_Kerwood Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/30/14
Posts: 2
I have a Denon AVR 3808CI powering a pair of M 100 tower speakers with a VP180 centre speaker 4 Qs8s. I have $4000 to spend. Should I get a power amp like the 1500 or get a EP800.
What would give me the best bang for the buck?

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#424926 - 04/13/17 03:12 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1166
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
I'd say it depends on what you'd like to improve or where you find your current system lacking. Do you have a sub already? If not I'd say go for the EP. However if you've got good bottom end already and find you're running out of headroom then go for more power. However getting a sub may also clean things up as the M100's won't have to play the low end which is offloaded to the sub and the amp won't have to power those frequencies giving it a tad more room to operate as well. I think the EP unless you already have a sub. Anyway that's my 2 cents without knowing your specific details. Smarter minds than mine will be along soon I'd guess to give better perspective :-)

Cheers,
_________________________
Dan
On-Wall M5HP LCR, QS8 & EP500 in 7.1

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#424927 - 04/13/17 03:27 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1786
Loc: Canada
I'd try for both...
_________________________
Sitting pretty.M80's still providing.4 paradigm subs, 12,10's & an 8.Still changing shit around.Lol.

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#424928 - 04/13/17 03:32 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: brwsaw]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1166
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Of course - should have stated the obvious! laugh
_________________________
Dan
On-Wall M5HP LCR, QS8 & EP500 in 7.1

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#424929 - 04/13/17 03:59 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
MatManhasgone Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
pulling the front 3 off the receiver you have would help significantly. I don't know if getting an EP800 is needed when you can get just as good sound from the smaller EP500 as significantly less cost. Unless you are trying for the ultra low 10-15hz sounds. I'd say you'd get far more bang and bass for your buck getting two EP500's than a single PS800.

I have the LFR1100 and got a pair of EP500's and the rarely need to kick in. I do have a pair of the ADA1000 which BTW are more than enough to power most rooms.
_________________________
Anthem: AVM60
Axiom: ADA1000, LFR1100, VP180, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp
AudioSource: Amp One/A

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#424931 - 04/13/17 06:50 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
JBrad Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 03/23/17
Posts: 20
I would recommend trying the amp first vs the sub. My first separate amp did wonders on the low end with speakers costing alot less than your M100's. I was using a receiver for processing at the time.

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#424932 - 04/13/17 07:29 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
MatManhasgone Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
Just to put it into perspective. The receiver that you have is supposed to be giving you 160w@8ohm.. but that might be optimistic. But your speakers are really running at 4ohm, so you might be getting between 60-80w. The major limiting factor inside the receiver is the power supply. it doesn't really have a big one, and next to no capacitance to give you reserve headroom.

The ADA1000 has a large transformer and can deliver a true 250w of power to your 3 speakers all driven full range. (something I doubt the Denon could ever do). You will be running the speakers with 4x the wattage and actual current to drive them.

Now I know that the ADA1500 is much bigger. It can in 3 channel drive 500w of power. The question you need to decide on is if you really need that much?

for tjhe same cost of a 3 channel ADA1500-3 you can buy an ADA1000-3 and a pair of EP500 and that would likely give you far better sound than buying a larger amp that you might never really get full use out of, or a really big sub that you not have to find the sonic sweet spot for.

just something to think about.
_________________________
Anthem: AVM60
Axiom: ADA1000, LFR1100, VP180, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp
AudioSource: Amp One/A

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#424941 - 04/14/17 10:13 AM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
spiroh Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 125
Loc: Chicago, IL
I had the exact receiver driving my M80's and the power on these is legit. They are actually very much in demand due to the power they have because the newer receivers are not built like this one is. I would try for both upgrades but if I had to do one or the other in your situation I would do the sub.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/de...I9LgGDMxeiA5.97

his graph shows that the AVR-3808CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 186.7 watts and 1 percent distortion at 210.9 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 238.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 277.3 watts.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/de...lfzcZ2KlLsqR.99

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#424944 - 04/14/17 10:57 AM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: spiroh]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 4734
The problem with these numbers Spiroh is they don't include dynamic headroom. I would say for the vast majority of listeners, the power of that Denon is more than adequate. But for those who have a need for "more" power, the numbers are misleading. If one listens with 50W nominal for example to well-recorded music, the Denon would run out of power because it doesn't appear from any of the photos I've seen to have any reserves.

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#424947 - 04/14/17 01:48 PM Re: More power to M100,s or EP800? [Re: Tom_in_Kerwood]
MatManhasgone Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
Spiroh.. the example graph referenced might as well be written on Toilet Paper as the content is pretty much suspect

As your graph shows they just took a single speaker to measure, that is fine. What the graph fails to mention is what tone frequency it was testing at? They do give all channels driven at 8-ohm, but not at 4. The unit published can get 130w @ 8ohm. The ADA1000 only does 125 at 8ohm, but actually can double down when you drive a 4ohm speaker. The numbers for the Denon doesn't show that.

So does that mean that the unit will run out of power from the power supply if running all speakers at 4ohm as with that resistance, you'd need double the current to drive the speakers. What might work at 8ohm does not mean it will work at 4.

They talk about a % of distortion, but without knowing what frequencies were tested and how the frequencies were played.. (ie a linear sweep from 10hz to 2000hz or was it a ping-pong sweep or a fixed sample?) And this is only with 2 speakers driven so you are using far less of the power supply reserves than trying to do the same test in a HT setup with all the speakers driven where you are more likely to get clipping.

Not saying the receiver is not a good unit. for the vast majority of people it will be excellent. But here, the OP is driving a far more power hungry speakers than most that would not be a problem just as long as you don't turn up the volume too loud.

The EP800 can produce very deep base and has it's own amp so yes you can help out a bit from taking that demand off the receiver. If you want to cut the bass management to say 120hz then you'd save quite a bit of power. then what is the point of getting M100s? you might a well just have purchased a pair of bookshelf M22 or the new M5HP as you've just cut the speaker off at the knees. You buy a full frequency speaker generally to get full frequency. The cost of doing so however is it need enough clean power to get there.

I was just pointing out with a lower cost external amp is you don't need knee jerk reaction. Your receiver might show really big numbers but it doesn't mean you-re getting those number in real life. So if your speakers are clipping, moving to a properly designed external amp, you may not need really huge numbers. If an external amp can deliver a true 250w @ 4 ohms, that might be more than enough if your receiver is only really giving you a true 60-80w @ 4ohms when taxes all channels driven. Why pay for 600w if your never going to use it.


Edited by MatManBobbleHead (04/14/17 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Anthem: AVM60
Axiom: ADA1000, LFR1100, VP180, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp
AudioSource: Amp One/A

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