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Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426291 08/09/17 03:00 AM
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Of course, for just trying one out, you may want to try a hybrid, like Monoprice's 50 wpc amp for $199 USD. Wait for a 30% off sale and you'd end up with one for about $140!



I've given away 2 of their less powerful 25 wpc hybrid, now only $140. They are a great match for the M3s.


Last edited by 2x6spds; 08/09/17 03:02 AM.

Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
2x6spds #426628 09/19/17 12:22 PM
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Some interesting things happen when one talks to a manufacturer about doing BLIND listening tests on loudspeakers. The most fascinating is as soon as the explanation is made regarding the testing under true blind conditions with a pre-amp level switcher, all interest is lost.

Over the last two years, I have reached out to 22 manufacturers of speakers ranging from $39 per pair to $15,000 per pair.

In the over $1000 per pair arena, it has been 14 manufacturers.

TWO have been willing and friendly about the process. Those companies are Legacy Audio and Axiom Audio.

And the LFR-1100's, M-100's and Signature SE (Legacy) are my personal favorite speakers.

The Legacy speakers are B&W killers for 1/3rd the price. Yes, they will compete with the Diamond 800's. Both are astonishingly "clear" speakers with a somewhat forward midrange.

The M-100's are very close to the PSB Imagine T-3, which sell for $7500 per pair and have gotten RAVE reviews from almost every magazine. In contrast to the Legacy/B&W speakers, the PSB/Axiom are more neutral, and to me, more musical. I could not pick a true "preference" between the M-100's and the T-3's.

That being said, it's understandable why others (Dave Upton from Home Theater Forum for example) prefer the somewhat more forward sound.

Legacy does a bit more advertising than does Axiom, but neither company has built its reputation on word of mouth from other audiophiles.

It's also understandable why most manufacturers refuse to do blind tests. One manufacturer, whose name will be left out, was actually insulting when we talked. This manufacturer has several full page ads in every magazine and AMAZINGLY gets rave reviews on its products.

When visiting an audio store that carried this company along with Magico, B&W and Magnepan, it was funny. Off to the side, and after I was making some "disappointed faces" over the sound of the in-named world beaters, the salesman was quite honest in letting me know that this company's speakers were great for sales, but not for music.

The Maggie 0.7's were a surprise. If one researches Magnepan, one will find that, as with Legacy and Axiom, all speaker development at Magnepan is done blind.

The Maggies STOMPED the $5000 per pair "superspeaker" from the in-named company in terms of music. A pair is only $1400, and they make good music.

The reason it's understandable is: The main magazines and manufacturers have a small business model they are trying to protect. Blind tests do not help that business model. The business is not built around the hobbyist, it's built around sales.

The salesman at the store also loves the Maggies. He said nothing, just put them on after the let down of the uber speaker from "un-named".

After the audition, he was telling me that the Maggies plus a JL Audio 10 inch sub would, for $2500, destroy $5000 per pair super speaker and deliver subsonic bass. This salesman, who is in his 50's and has spent his adult life in the business, was a refreshing change from what we usually see.

He has a following that knows he will steer them right. He also has people coming in with the "Stereophile said this was Class B ... I want a pair" ideal, and he just rings up the sale, knowing that he would lose a sale if he tried to educate the consumer.

Ok ... rant over.

Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426630 09/19/17 03:14 PM
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Well written and informative, as usual Craig. Thank you.

I would suspect that the majority of companies actually do "in-house" blind tests to, at the very least, improve their product but as you've clearly shown, they care more about maximizing their profit margins by controlling/not allowing independent testing.
Funny how so many people in this industry just don't trust their own hearing.


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Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
Adrian #426631 09/19/17 03:49 PM
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Two corrections ... When I said "neither company has" in regards to building a reputation based on word of mouth, I meant BOTH HAVE.

And I managed to type "in-named" instead of "un-named".

Adrian - Most companies do not do blind listening tests, although the Harman International Group has the best blind test abilities around, in terms of hardware.

The magazine world actually supports this trend. Audio Magazine and the Audio Critic, both proponents of blind tests, are history. Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, who rake in more advertising $$$$ than anyone in this business, have written extensive, and nonsensical, papers on why blind listening is the "wrong way" to evaluate.

The public prefers to the approach taken by Stereophile/Absolute Sound.

Last edited by craigsub; 09/19/17 03:55 PM.
Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426632 09/19/17 04:47 PM
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I guess what I'm inferring is that "company x" makes a speaker, then wouldn't they test it either against one of their own or previous version of said speaker, just to benchmark it? in other words, tweaking/tuning the speaker to improve dynamics ect. Not disagreeing with you, it just seems so easy.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426637 09/19/17 11:09 PM
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Hi craigsub

So glad to see your update to this thread.

When I bought my Emerald Physics EP2.8s, I also auditioned the $50,000 Legacy speakers with Raven tube amplification. That combination sounded great. Of course, so did the EP 2.8s, at the hotel, not so much in my living room, where they sound very mediocre, that is, not as good as my M22Tis with a Harman Kardon tube receiver TA5000x.

Maggies are terrific and terrific bargains as well.

As to audio magazine reviews, I think many are "Advertorials," bought and paid for with advertising dollars. I think this is the case with many but not all their reviews.

I think that is why the major audio magazines, Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, don't review Axioms. No advertising dollars from Axiom. Home Theater Review, on the other hand, seems to give honest reviews.

When was the last time you saw a magazine give a product advertised in their mag a lousy review?


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
2x6spds #426639 09/20/17 12:08 PM
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2x6 ... You won't see negative reviews in a magazine that accepts advertising, unless there is a comparison with products that do advertise.

The issue with your 2.8's was pretty easy to spot for people who have been around audio for a long time. Think of the "macro issue" of ordinary audiophiles buying these speakers then having them sound mediocre at best, when listening at home. Is the business model Mr. Schifter promising for months to show up to fix them, and maybe making it after 6 months?

In the mean time, one can take a pair of Legacy, PSB, Axiom, Bryston, Paradigm, Klipsch (heritage) ... and a variety of other speakers and have them sounding GREAT in 10 minutes.

The problem, again, is that the buying public LIKES how Stereophile/Absolute Sound do things. It's an ego stroke .....

"My system was $78,000, and all Class A components"

In the meantime, my $15,000 Axiom system sounds better. And it isn't because it's "mine". It's because it was designed using real, solid engineering.

Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426641 09/20/17 01:53 PM
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I would hazard to say the Emerald Physics model is to stall so that you cant remember how they sounded and the customer cannot send them back because you've had them for too long. It doenst matter what wild and incredible promise that they made to you that if they don't sound as good as what we had them like.. its all a marketing ploy. And I think you'd find that even if you convinced them to issue an RMA number to ship them back to them at your cost, you'd find that the issuing of the cheque back to you will never happen or will be stalled for just as long in hopes you'd simply give up and forget about it.

If you look at the Axiom model, they ship a fully working and can easily get sounding excellent speaker. You have problems, they will be more than happy to get on the phone with you if there is something you are doing wrong, or if it's a technical problem then ship you out the replacement parts right away. Then give you the 30 days to actually evaluate the speakers in your own home on your equipment. That is not the standard business model for the speaker of HiFi audio community.


Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426652 09/21/17 08:02 AM
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I bought my first Axiom speakers 15 years ago. Started with M3s and a nice SET tube amp. Was love my friends. Most of my speakers are either Axioms or made by Axiom (Michauras). They are wonderful sounding. Customer service? There is no better.

I don't know what went wrong with this Emerald Physics venture. What I auditioned were stunningly great sounding. If they can get mine to be stunningly great sounding, I will keep them, but I have to say, the bloom is off that rose in any case.

Craigsub, you nailed it. I am sorry I plunked big bucks for these exotics. Used high end speakers (Thiels, heritage Klipsch, Dahlquists (real ones), Legacy, and of course, Axioms, new or used, are the way to go, IMO.

Happy New Year boys!


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Blind Test and a review of the LFR-1100's
craigsub #426661 09/22/17 04:34 AM
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Amen, Craig!


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


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