Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners The Might from Dwight - Review of the EP800v4

If you absolutely have no desire to become a bassaholic, stop reading right now. Contrary to a bass head, a bassaholic is one who loves smooth, deep, tight, fast, transparent, undistorted bass that doesn't draw attention to itself but rather blends with the rest of the material no matter how much the volume is turned up. If you don't like infrasonic breezes, gut punches and 'nad tickling from your sub, or bass that can't be localized to your sub, steer clear of this post. This kind of bass typically makes your entire system sound better no matter what your listening position is. This kind of bass leads to frequent bassgasms. If you don't want to suffer from this addiction, do NOT buy an EP800v4. Otherwise, if you want all of this and easy integration into your system, you've just found your dream sub.

This review is divided into a number of sections. The "Full Disclosure" describes my 11-year Odyssey with a previous Axiom sub. "The Purchase" describes how I ended up pulling the trigger and the circumstances that led to me owning a one-of-a-kind, very special sub. "Flipping the Switch" is special so I won't give it away. "Listening Impressions" are my quick notes of tracks and movies I've listened to that I am sure you will enjoy. My addiction and the new ills I'm currently suffering are described in "Why I hate Axiom". I conclude with "Final Thoughts" about why you might or might not want this sub.

- Full Disclosure -

To give you full context of my experience, I'll start at the start. I'm in a 4,200 cubic foot space dedicated to audio/video. This space is open to the rest of the house via a staircase so it's not the easiest room to pressurize (although the 800v4 has no problem). I have berber carpet with thick underlay. The drywall isn't treated but about 70% of it is covered with art. I have one listening position I care about: mine. The front speakers are 9 feet apart and well away from the side walls. I sit 14 feet away from the mains and about 12 feet away from the sides and rears. My soundstage width and height is huge but I lack depth. The width, even in 2.1, extends well away from the speaker boundaries with well-recorded material. I very much care about how my content sounds but I'm not willing to spend frequently on upgrades.

In February 2007, after 35 years of living with no sub and 6 years with a lower quality sub, I finally received what I expected to be my first and last REAL subwoofer. Up to that time, I enjoyed a $120 Sony sub that I heavily customized. I didn't know what a good sub was supposed to sound like but with the mods I made, that Sony sounded tighter and more tuneful. The behemoth I received was an Axiom EP600v2; a DSP-based, ported, 45"-tall sub that was spec'd down to 16Hz. That sub spawned 6 years of hell for me. I should have sent it back because no matter what I did, I could not get it to sound tight like my cheap Sony.

In 2013, I acquired an Onkyo tx-nr838 receiver which, with its Audyssey XT32, managed to do wonders to not only the 600v2 but in general, my entire system. Norimasa Kitagawa, and the rest of the small but highly dedicated engineering team who worked on this Onkyo model, likely have a special spot reserved in heaven for pulling off a miracle and making Onkyo relevant. Unfortunately, a year later, some business "genius" at Onkyo destroyed everything that team accomplished by yanking Audyssey from their product line. However, even this majestic Onk couldn't save the 600v2 from a disease called distortion.

At around the time of my purchase, Ian (Axiom's President) did all he could to satisfy me including showing up at my house - 2000 miles away - with a new amp. Finally he suggested a new sub they were working on - the EP800. For various reasons, I decided to forego the EP800 back in 2008 although I was sure he'd take good care of me on that upgrade. I should point out that since that time, Axiom has moved away from ported subs for their DSP-based line and that includes the EP600v4. Besides the sub, the 2007 purchase included a pair of M80s, a VP150 and two pairs of QS8s.

For almost 11 years, I closely followed the Axiom and other audio boards, the evolution of the EP800, other products and the people at Axiom. In 2009, Ian hired Andrew Welker, an electrical engineer who worked for Harman and came up with the omni-directional tweeter line for Mirage amongst other products. I watched what Andrew and Ian did together over the years. I saw their emphasis on using science to characterize speaker behavior using the Family of Curves and then applying those learnings to realize better-sounding products. I saw slow and deliberate changes as Axiom re-engineered the cross-overs, the cabinets, all the drivers and the amplifier line including the sub amplifiers. I saw rapid change as they embraced new technologies like wireless, software and new manufacturing techniques. I saw innovative loyalty programs such as the trade-in program and loyalty discounts. I didn't upgrade my system at all but I did buy a few other things from Axiom along the way. I prowled, lurked, learned and exercised patience. As you'll discover, patience is certainly a virtue that brings good value. My patience was exhausted and the good value started on Black Friday 2017.

The weakest parts of my system were the VP150v2 and the 600v2 (by a long shot). I spotted a VP160v4 and an EP800v4 in the B-stock store. The VP160v4 was a traditional centre speaker design and I trusted Andrew did a great job with it as one of his first projects at Axiom. Besides, the votes were in from board members and the VP160 was great. As for the EP800, the v3 was favourably reviewed by numerous Axiom board members. Dale Rasco's measurements back in 2014 showed us it wasn't the EP600 nightmare Ilkka measured back in 2006. What pushed me to the EP800v4 however was Craig Chase's reviews in early 2017 and his gracious and whole-hearted personal recommendation to me. He chose to replace his JL Audio Fathom with the EP800. This gave me the confidence to give the EP800 a chance because Craig has likely listened to hundreds of subs inside his home and he knows not only subs but speakers and audio in general. Nonetheless, I remained skeptical.

- The Purchase -

Deciding to trade in my EP600v2 for the EP800v4 was a no-brainer. The VP150 was for a friend so I would buy the VP160v4 without a trade. Debbie from Axiom promptly made sure my loyalty discount was up-to-date in my on-line account. I then tried to do the transaction on-line but my "finger problems" nixed that. I called Axiom and left a message saying I want to give them my money. Steve promptly called me back. He informed me I couldn't trade in for B-stock; I had to trade for new or buy the B-stock. Before ending the call, I said something like "Damn! I waited 11 years to try this sub. Alright, forget it. I'll just buy the center." Five minutes later Steve called me back and said he spoke with Ian. Ian wanted me to be happy so he'd accept the trade. Right on! The EP600v2 would be exorcised from my man-cave. I then realized what a sweet deal I had been given with the trade-in credit and the customer loyalty and Black Friday discounts!

The centre and sub arrived a week later via FedEx. I didn't see how the driver moved 130 lbs of sub from the truck to the ground but he sure didn't use a lift. I was worried gravity did all the work. The sub's shipping box had suffered a couple of gashes. I brought everything inside and let the sub warm up while I connected the centre. I have reviewed the very good centre elsewhere. I placed the sub in its location and connected power and the coax. The gain was set at about 10 o'clock. It was then I noticed the continuously variable phase knob and that brought a smile to my face. Also the confusing "full, half, flat" switch that drove me nuts on the EP600v2 was gone and so was the USB port that never served a purpose in the field. The polarity switch was set to normal. I decided to leave the switches alone and just play it.

First up, Pappa was a Rolling Stone by Lee Ritenour over Spotify Premium. Not ten seconds later, a wide smile overtook me. Another ten seconds and that wide smile turned to a giddy laugh. THIS was the sound I had missed for 11 years. I didn't want to take time away from the music to calibrate the sub because it sounded so fantastic already. I managed to pull myself together and play the calibration tone through my Onk. To my surprise, the gain switch on the back of the amp was serendipitously set correctly. Using my SPL meter, I then made sure the polarity, phase, distance and gain were set correctly at the 80Hz cross-over. I listened to a few more songs relishing in the sound and then decided to compare against the EP600v2. Even though the difference was so incredibly stark, I wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining it. It didn't take me long to permanently silence the EP600v2; the difference was like the taste between sweet nectarines and lemons.

I then decided to crank the LFE gain on my Onk as I played a Bass Mekanix track to see how loud and low it could go. This is where things went wrong. I heard a vibration coming from the amp as if something was loose. I immediately recorded the sound through the amp's ventilation grills and mailed the sound file to Ian. Very quickly Ian responded sympathetically and said he'd build me a new sub! I said take all the time you want - it's not like this one sounds bad at "normal" levels. This is where the story takes a very interesting turn.

Shortly before I made my purchase, I was discussing on the boards how I'd like a sub that allows me to feel bass down low in my 'nads but also up higher. A few days after Ian told me he's building a new sub, he sent me an e-mail informing me he can send out my sub next week but if I was willing to wait, he could re-purpose the DSP code and the infrasonic cut-off switch to give me "Gut Punch" and "Nad Tickler" modes. I thought I was dreaming but I managed to respond with something like "Hell yeah! I'll wait. Bring it on!". I also asked him if he can change the artwork on the amp backplate to reflect the two modes and have him and Andrew sign the twin drivers. Two days later, he sent me a photo of the backplate artwork that Jamie at Axiom created.

Ian then created custom DSP code, loaded it into the sub and tested it in the anechoic chamber. The day the sub was scheduled to arrive, I watched for the truck and met the driver before he had a chance to unload. I helped him unload it and carry it inside. When I unboxed it, I cracked a huge smile when I saw Ian's and Andrew's signatures on the drivers. Build quality appeared fantastic - nothing made me feel like it was cheap. After warming up, I positioned it where the previous sub was and checked the dials and switches. They were in the same place as the previous sub. I made sure the mode switch was in the Nad Tickler position (flat response). I adjusted the phase to match my last calibration and played Lee Ritenour again. Heaven! It sounded fantastic! The real test however was Bass Mekanix. Would the sub misbehave again? Not a chance. I cranked it and I just got more of that tight, undistorted, deep, fast, transparent and highly addictive bass.

I spent a good week listening to the sub in the flat response mode. I didn't want to flip the switch to Gut Punch until I was used to the flat sound. I noticed my entire system sounded better. I found myself listening to music more than watching movies. With the previous sub, I could never hear the contact drumsticks or bass drum mallets made on the drum skin. Now, there was a realistic SNAP! You might ask "How can that be when the bass is in the lower frequencies and the contact with the skin is higher up?" It's not so much higher to be out of the bass harmonic distortion range. My old sub created so much harmonic distortion, it affected the higher ranges enough to muddy the sound. Now, it's crystal clear. I find now I prefer listening to music in 2.1 instead of PLII or Neo. And while I still love what Audyssey XT32 does to the sound, it's not a night and day difference like before.

- Flipping the switch -

When I was ready, I flipped the switch. Major disappointment! I could tell right away something wasn't right; either FedEx busted it when I wasn't looking, my room sucked or Ian flubbed the code. The sub sounded simply awesome in Nad Tickler mode and Ian showed my sub some real love in the anechoic chamber, so I knew it had to be my room. After running some measurements, I discovered it cut the amplitude response in my room by creating a 15dB notch at 68 Hz. After careful deliberation, I selected one of three possible places to relocate the Might from Dwight. WHAM, BAM, SNAP; I didn't need measurements to tell me I struck gold! I took measurements anyway because that's what engineers do. Between 53Hz and 76Hz, I got a 7dB gut punch wallop! That is a 5-fold boost in power in that frequency band.

- Listening Impressions in 2.1 with Gut Punch -

I'm leaving out impressions about rock classics from Queen, AC/DC, Metallica, Steely Dan , etc and obvious movie scenes like the pod emergence from WOTW, depth charges from U-571 etc. because this is all child's play for the 800v4. I'll just say on the U-571 depth charge scene, when the depth charges were released, I felt them in my gut from the inside-out. When they exploded, I felt them in my gut from the outside-in and of course my house was set ablaze.

I've also listened to most of the material below in flat mode. If someone took Gut Punch away from me today, I would still want to be buried with this sub and have my bones rocked all the way to the gates of Hades. Gut Punch is icing on the cake and as far as I am concerned, Ian has atoned for EP600v2 sins by so graciously offering me this mode.

1. Pappa was a rolling stone by Lee Ritenour: each note of the bass guitar is present and rendered without sloppiness. The bass drum hits hard and "fast" without any distortion or inaccuracy. A real treat!
2. On that morning by Robben Ford: real weight to the bass guitar notes. They enter from centre stage but permeate the entire room. I clearly hear the attack and release of the strings and "air" between them. I feel resonance just below my chest.
3. Maybe I'll go by Guy Davis: Clean, soulful, highly resonant.
4. Ain't no sunshine when she's gone by Bobby "Blue" Band: amazing bass drum! Pressurizes my ears and hits me behind the head through my thickly padded, La-z-Boy recliner. Very similar sensation with Voodoo Child (slight return) by Angelique Kidjo.
5. Home computer 2009 remastered by Kraftwerk: staccato electronica notes that I feel through my chair in my lower back.
6. Bass ballin' lo & slo remix by Bass Mekanix: the whole room is lit up! Pressurization in both ear drums is being switched on and off. My whole body is in motion.
7. Dq drop by Bass Mekanix: scary! Hits hard and doesn't let go.
8. Twist of rit by Lee Ritenour: a real treat at 42 seconds in.
9. Billie Jean by MJ: every note is rendered cleanly and the drum hits hard!
10. Me and my bass guitar by Victor Wooten: incredible articulation and control over every note.
11. Annie wants a baby by The Red Hot Chili Peppers: great snap and pop in the intro.
12. Holy road by Dan Fogelberg: drums are filling up all 23 feet of my front soundstage. I can't help but crank this and now I feel it in my belly.
13. Drum & bass father by Devilman, Badness: if I crank it anymore, I'll get sick.
14. Infrasonic dreams by Bassotronics: there are notes in here I can't hear but I can feel and so can the entire house. Same with Pimp my ride by DJ Billy E.
15. Sub bass excursion by Bassotronics: I feel this where the sun don't shine.
16. Poem of the Chinese drum by Hok-Man Yim: amazing. I'm cranking it. Now my eye balls are jittering.
17. Another brick in the wall by Gabriella Quevedo on youtube: no bloat, no sloppiness. Just room-filling accurate sound.
18. Billie Jean by Alexandr Misko on youtube: clean , articulate...you gotta hear it.
19. The end of the fXXXking world, episode 6 at 3:40 in by Netflix: great drum solo that fills the area between the M80s and is rendered a foot above them. Lasts about
4 minutes.
20. Hearthrob by Netflix: wicked LFE right from the opening credits. Starting at 1:07:00 for about 35 seconds, infransonics are shaking everything including my La-Z-boy.

- Why I hate Axiom -

The sub is so amazing even without the gut punch. It exudes confidence with each undulation of its twin, albino drivers. No farting, burping or bleating no matter how much I boost the LFE gain on my Onk; just more smooth, transparent, undistorted, addictive bass. In my room however, the gut punch is very welcome due to a valley in a portion of the gut punch band. I find now I never twiddle with the LFE volume. I have no need to turn it up. Turning it up though doesn't distract; it just makes a good thing even better. I also find the bass is more even throughout the room. In fact, with the sub and VP160v4 upgrade, it doesn't really matter where one is seated - it's all good! I would have never believed it unless I heard it for myself. Given what I hear now, I can't see a good reason to upgrade the rest of my system.

I have to say I hate Axiom and everyone there. I don't like Ian who made this possible. I don't like Andrew who shaped the quality of sound and electrical engineering. I don't like Deb who builds and tests drivers amongst other things. I don't like Steve who takes care of the website. I don't like Jamie who takes care of the finishes and artwork and panels. All of these people are responsible for my getting about 4 hours of sleep a night since I dialed in the EP800v4. I'm totally addicted to the bass and the new sound of my system with the bass totally cleaned up. When I'm at work, all I can think about is getting back to my system. When I'm out with friends, all I can think about is getting back to my system. All my friends now hate me because even though my system sounded good, now it's beyond dreamy. I don't ever want to move out of this house and into a smaller space because the sound will then collapse into a tiny freakin' sweet spot and I won't be able to support the current subbage. Someone help me! I'm considering selling my entire Axiom system because it's ruining my life!

- Final thoughts -

Have you ever loved a product or an experience but wondered what a better product or experience might be? If you've used similar products or had similar experiences, you would have an immediate frame of reference for comparison. I've heard many subs in many rooms and have no reservation saying this is the best sub I have heard and is the last sub I will ever need. If you don't have an adequate frame of reference however, you will never know how good this sub really is. You may never be able to fully appreciate it. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing, from a sound quality perspective, Axiom needs to invest in for the EP800v4.

If you trust what I've said, the only decision you now have to make is whether you need an 800, 600 or 500 and how many. The 800 is powerful enough for a 10,000 cubic foot room and goes deeper than you will ever need. The 600 is far more practical with its response down to 16Hz; I'd bet it wouldn't have a problem pressuring a 7,500 cubic foot space. As for the 500, its response is down to 19Hz and I know from experience it doesn't have any problem filling my room. If you have a large room and want to even out your bass, multiple 600s are likely the way to go.

Norimasa Kitagawa will enjoy Ian's and Andrew's company because I think there will be a spot reserved for them as well.

Enjoy your journey!

My EP800v4BSGG is smoothing out very nicely now; I can actually use the Gin Gut-punch with more varied music and not blow the windows out, it's just sounding like a live band in the living room.

I have been testing the Parasound Class D amp with 600 watts per channel over the past week and it's adding a lot to the system at the Model T's, its pretty intense to be honest. Almost too much, I had to dial down the bass in the main speakers.

I find the 800 to be very musical, it's just perfect and far better than the 5 other subs I have had over the past year. The only sub which I think is as good is my EP 500 which is very similar in sound performance, but obviously lower in output with a single driver, smaller cabinet and less power; but keep in mind, it's not a small sub in the least. In fact it's large by sub standards.

I'll have more to report after more use and break-in time.

We both got blessed subs.

Buy the Bryston 7b3.

Can the 500 go as loud as the 800 at its current setting?

Thanks for this review Mojo, I especially like reading about the thought process that others go through before pulling the trigger.

It's been almost a year since I bought my Axiom gear and have loved it... that is, until Axiom decided to introduce new, bigger, on-wall options! Now I'm actually thinking of trading in my VP-150OW for the VP-180OW. Would love to upgrade the M22OW's as well but the M80OW's are too wide by an inch!

Back to subwoofers... as much as I like the EP175, I have been thinking of upgrading it to the EP500. My room is only ~2700 cubic feet.

Guess I have some thinking to do. I'll be up in Dwight/Huntsville in July... wonder if Ian would cut me a deal on shipping if I bring up my old gear to swap for the new gear :-)

I didn't hear any problems with the VP180v4 at JBrad's place. I have the VP160v4 (I bought it in December per my review) and I like it.

I'd expect the M5HPOW to sound better than the M22OW.

The EP500v4 will be a killer for your room. SlimPikins has an EP500 in his 10,000 cu. ft. space (for music) and he loves it. Now he has the EP800v4 with the gut punch switch and he loves that too!

I am sure Ian can help you out. Especially if you buy the 500. Maybe he can make you one with the gut punch switch.

Unfortunately, I'm really constrained by the width as I only have 10 inches on either side of my 65" screen for speakers due to doors on one side and a fireplace on the other side. The M5HP, M60, and M80 OW's are all 11.x" wide :-(

Fortunately, my Axiom gear is almost 100% for movies/games so L/R is not as critical as the center channel and I have plenty of room to move up to the VP180OW.

If I can make the stars align, I'd also love to audition some M100 or maybe even some LFR1100's to compare to my Totem Hawks. If I find the sound better, it should be easy to sell the Totem's to pay for the Axioms :-)

Pablo, do your Totem Hawks give you soundstage depth?

Nothing that hasn't given me concerns :-). The Hawks were definitely a step (leap!) up from the Mitsubishi SS-1100s they replaced and I have never fatigued from listening to them. I like them a lot actually. Just wondering what a full range M100 sounds like in comparison for about the same $'s.

I'm curious as well. I expect the M100s will be far more dynamic and will throw a wider soundstage particularly if you can place them 9 or more feet apart.

I would expect you've bottomed out the Hawks? I have a pair of Dreamcatchers in a secondary 2.1 only room and they bottom out even though I have them crossed over at 80Hz. The room is 10x10x8 so it doesn't take much to bottom them.

If you do hear the M100s or LFRs, I'd be curious to know if you hear depth as well as width and height.

If you listen to Sun it Rises by fleet foxes do you hear 2 distinct depths from the very start to when the song starts?

Let me check.

Or at the start of Badfish- Sublime 40 oz to freedom it sounds like you are up on stage with the singer looking onto the unruly crowd? Then the siren swirls from back to left and front in the soundstage at 2:06?

I do but I have to make the sub 3dB hot. Otherwise, I'd never hear it.

So I guess the EP800v4 is crap, huh?

Let me check on Badfish.

I don't get that sense at the beginning of 40 0z to Freedom. And I don't hear a siren anywhere in the song. It does sound cool though.

So either you're smoking the good stuff out on your little island or my ear-brain system is fried or my entire environment (including equipment) sucks.

If my ear-brain system is fried, then there's no point in living a life of lies. I should just pack it in and put that burial plot to good use.

If my environment sucks, I have good reason to sell my house and all its contents, move to a condo, buy that $100 soundbar I've always wanted and retire.

If you're smoking the good stuff, I want some.

I am now waiting for Socketman to show up and tell me how overly-dramatic I am.

Trevor...dude...say somethin'. Am I living in the Matrix, man?

Trevor, I just remembered you're 70 years younger than me, man. You hear better than me.

If you 'imagine' that you hear significant depth in some recordings but not in others, then it most likely is the mix of the recording. Too many mixes are mediocre, produced for the MP3 or IPhone crowd.

Chasing this elusive characteristic in every recording is futile & will end up in the great frustration that you are enjoying...

TAM

TAM, I don't hear depth on any content. NADA!

Do you?

I find through my system a lot of recordings{C.D.s} that sound good through headphones sound terrible. Separated almost like the band not together at all. Or hiphop and RNB that sound like a really bad record was used for their tracks.

The quality of Tidal or Spotify eliminates a lot of bad C.D.s flaws. To witch I have never noticed the same effect from a Vinyl sounding like they mixed every part of the tracks at different levels.

In 2 Ch listening, I have lots of recordings that are a cut above many others; however, whether it is 'depth' or not I can't say. In HT, depth can be quite apparent due to surround wizardry.

With most modern music where virtually all instruments & vocals are amplified in some fashion, their output levels are mixed to be really close to being the same thus nullifying any apparent depth. The result is a flat wall of sound.

After all of the live music concerts or pubs that I've attended, I can't say that the drums sounded like they were way in the back as they most always are. Even in a symphony concert in a large hall from the 25th row, do the tympanis sound like they are way behind the violins? Not really; however, sounds of the various instruments are easily picked out by their azimuth across the stage.

Depth seems to be only regularly found in reviews in snobbish audiophile magazines that I find not to be very credible in relation to my experience in real world listening - both live & at home...

TAM

Both of my setups

2 way leema Xero minimonitors (extremely small image monsters)
3 way Statement 2 towers (extremely large bulky towers)

Each exhibit depth in each of those recordings. Its not silly "the entire soundstage falls away from me" kinda stuff, but clear separation in the 2 tracks I mentioned. I use Sublime- Badfish as a test track for this. There is a swirling siren at 2:06. Its there.

Put on Louie Louie by the Kingsmen. I was googling around to find what other people use. They sound like they are at the end of a narrow corridor on my theater setup (not in a good way!)

I wouldnt fret Mojo. Its not your speakers/sub. Its a setup issue. The setups I tune all have depth when Im done. Its a secret!

Hi TDIPablo,

It is possible to have your on-wall M80s made with a special cabinet that is less than 10" wide. If you want to pursue this option let me know.

Thats awesome

Sometimes I get the same effect just because the speakers do a really good job of distinguishing between instruments. No Doubt's Hella Good is a good example - on many systems and some headphones it sounds like a single bass track, but through Axioms and similarly toned speakers there are clearly at least two distinct bass tracks (one electric bass, one keyboard bass IIRC) and maybe three.

I have a bit of the same sentiment as you - sometimes it almost seems better when the speakers/headphones blur all the tracks together. It's kind of counter-intuitive.

He's on vacation in sunny YT so i'll do it for him.

MOJ, you're being overdramatic.



So by generalizing your earlier comments, it sounds like the EP800 pressurizes you larger room better than the EP600, and secondly, you had a distinct bass void at some location in your room.

Query, if you had two EP600s and no bass void, would it have sounded as good?
Or are you convinced the EP600 just isn't a good sub? (judging by your comments, that's what it sounds like you're saying)

I've been contemplating a switch to a more beefy sub for quite some time. The old EP350 was good in our smaller room, older house, but still had to crank it to 75% to get that chest thumping from a solid explosion sound. Love it for music, but it seems underpowered for movies.
I had my eye on the newer EP500 as a contender. Space is at a premium to jam in anything much larger, though i might be able to place two EP500s if i really changed around a few things including, at some point, replacing an older tv with a newer, on wall OLED thus freeing up space under the tv.

At some similar point, i will also be switching out the VP150 for the VP160.

Mike, I had the EP600v2. The sub suffered from too much distortion likely due to the port but not completely I think. Two EP600s would have been worse. It was as bad an experience as driving on Portage Ave with the year-round construction...LOL! It had no problem pressuring my 4,200 cu.ft. space but it wasn't a linear experience. The 800v4 was a God-send. It cleaned everything up and I have tight, transparent, effortless, fast, distortionless bass throughout my room and it doesn't distort no matter how much you turn it up. It's quite amazing, really.

You only need one 500v4. SlimPikins has one in his 10,000 cu.ft. space (for music only) and loves it. I tried a 500v2 in my 4,200 cu.ft. room a decade back and it had no problem with music and movies. If you do get one of the DSP-based Axiom subs, you might want to consider asking Ian to give you the gut punch mode (read my review).

The VP160 is sooooo much better than the 150. It's a no-brainer. I just upgraded from the 150v2 which I think you have, to the 160v4. So glad I did.

This would have been a question for sure.
Ported vs sealed.
The EP350 has suffered from 'port chuff' for years.

I'll keep those thoughts on the EP500 in mind. If i actually can find room for a second one, i might go that route.

Nooooooooo! I hate you Ian, with every fibre of my being! Ok, now I have to come up with a very subtle plan to convince my wife I need this massive upgrade.

(My life was much better thinking this was not an option )

Exactly, Pablo. Same shit he pulled on me with the EP800v4 Nad Mass Edition! I haven't gotten any sleep since I got the damned thing 'cause I'm listening to music into the wee hours of the night. LOL!

If it were only up to me, I'd tell him to start making them! Unfortunately, the wife already thinks the current setup, though way better than what it replaced, is plenty loud (and I'm often told to turn it down). I know I want to upgrade the sub, I'm already at 75-80% volume at the back for HT and I want more oompf but I'm afraid to fry it again. The EP175 is the best sub I've ever had but I'm wondering if a sealed EP500 would be crisper.

I really need to make a trip to Axiom this year when I'm up at the cottage (only 13km away!) to listen to a side by side comparison of the M22 vs M80 and a demo of the EP500 vs EP175 so I hear the differences.

M22 vs. M80...LOL! EP175 vs. EP500...double LOL!

Tell the missus that the new speakers will have to be turned up half as loud to sound twice as good. Ahahahahaha!

Louie Louie sounds like it's coming from a 2 foot diameter pipe in the middle of my 22 foot width. That we agree on.

I look forward to you blessing my setup with depth. And bring a snowblower too. It's like Algonquin Park here today.

I need quadratic diffusers.

I've broken every rule in this article except #5.

http://audiophilereview.com/room-acoustics/as-we-discussed-in-our.html

TDI:

Unless you have a huge room, if you get an EP500 or two (preferable), you will not need M80s. Your M22s will be an outstanding combo with those subs.

Aesthetically, the slender M22s will probably will look better than trying to fit M80s into your tight space. Wifey might be more agreeable as well...

TAM

With M22s, the mids will be thinner than M80s; they won't be as full and rich. Also if you like to turn it LOUD, they might not have enough 'nad mass. You'll also want to evaluate how far apart they can be placed before the imaging and soundstage collapses for your set-up.

Guys (and one Sonicfox)...I have some info that makes me suspect we all need LFRs.

TDI:

It seems that you have M22OWs mounted already in a restricted space & you are using an EP175 for the low end.

A couple of EP500s are exponentially more capable than what you have now & will easily take care of all of the midrange & low bass that you desire. You would be hard pressed to find any sonic deficiencies in this setup.

It seems that most towers in HTs are used with one or more subs & are often crossed over at 80 Hz or so. This largely strangles most of their low end capability - so what is the point? My M22V4s blend with & compliment my EP800s perfectly & can effortlessly play far louder than is safe or that I can stand.

If subs aren't used then towers make perfect sense...

TAM

My thinking as well, as much as I like bigger, I think the M80OW would be overkill for what I use this system for, HT. Upgrading the center channel though, that's a real consideration.

I know the ideal situation for me would be dual EP500's and $3k isn't the end of the world but it does compete with other priorities (3 kids with expensive hobbies!). I may have to start slow and get 1 EP500 and pair it with the EP175 to start. Eventually my oldest will move out and I have a lot of spare gear I'll be happy to part with... including the EP175

Probably wouldn't gain much, if anything using your EP175 with the 500. I'd use the 175 as a trade-in on the 500, myself.

I agree with Adrian.

My HT in medium size room is based on M22V4s on stands coupled with a pair of EP800V3s & QS8 V4s that produce a great HT experience - way more power & capability than I can use.

One of the best upgrades that you can make is a VP 160 or 180. I have the 160 that is a powerful & outstanding performer with a more 'conventional' driver layout for a horizontal speaker than the 180. Furthermore, it is somewhat smaller than the 180 so that might fit your space better as well...

TAM

I agree with TAM on the VP160v4. I've also had limited exposure to the VP180v4 and heard nothing wrong with it.

This is a helluva deal! EP800v4 for $Can 2182.00.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/deals/refurb-store/1468

My pristine HG Rosewood EP800s were a helluva deal at $1500 CAD each a couple of years ago from the Refurb Store.

Glad that I snagged them when I did...

TAM

Yeah but your HG Rosewood EP800s are a measly v3 whereas the v4 has more 'nad mass with 500,000 mega Farads of ultra-low ESR capacitance, the OSoSweet continously variable phase knob and the fluxbuster mono-toroidal transformer.

I feel so inadequate, sniff...

TAM

Oh...and the albino aluminum dust cap. Mine glows pink when I crank it.

I wish mine was rosewood.

Glowing...

Your boys or your albino aluminum dustcaps?

Weeks now into the Gut busting 800; it's funny but either I am getting used to it or the thing is truly breaking in..... I can play it with the switch in the 'up' position; +6db boost 50-100 hz and it's not over powering as it did initially. It's just very smooth and meshes so well with the EP500.

Two EP500's in this massive room would do well too for the record, especially with switches. But it's fun to only have to deal with one switch on the 800 and leave the 500 alone to do it's thing. I am running the gain at about 12 o'clock on the 800 and perhaps 1 o'clock on the 500 and an average boost on the preamp of up to +2 db. This is with the A51 running 400 watts bi-amped into the Model T's. When I tested the Parasound Class D amp last week at 600 watts single feed into the T's I had to cut back the gain on the subs, there was so much low end coming out of the T's it was just over powering the room.

I might pick up a pair of Anthem M1 mono blocks which would be 2000 watts per channel into the T's, YIkes! I was told the low to mid range out of those amps is very powerful. It's that or the Bryston 14 B or 7 B monos. Most likely a used set up of SST2, either runs 900 watts per channel. But I am intrigued with the ultra slim M1's with liquid cooling.

Almost 3 months in and the Ep800v4NME is still AWESOME! Anyone who hasn't upgraded to a v4 DSP sub is missing out big time.

Well I have had around 6 weeks of time with the EP800v4GB; I love it! By far the best sub I have had in this room. This is way beyond any SVS sub I had (4 of them) and much smoother more refined than the Paradigm SW2000 for my application. I found the SW2000 was over-powering the room and causing resonances in various areas. I couldn't dial it in well.

The EP800 and my EP500 work harmoniously together and the sound is perfect for the grazer and other grazers who wish to do so.

I have had two weeks experience with a pair of Anthem M1 Statement mono-blocks.... yikes! These pancakes just turned my pair of Model T's into two more EP500's at the front of the room. It's like I have 4 subs in the room and the imaging/soundstage is outstanding!! I am still trying to replicate two amplifier fault code which shut down the amps for 10 seconds several times one night under moderately heavy lifting. I reduced the output level from the preamp to the monos by 3 db; so far no faults. I am also thinking that the faults might have been caused by the power line coming in as it happened during a huge storm with 50 mph wind. I think there may have been a voltage swings which the monitoring circuits in the M1's didn't like. After all, the M1's have multiple monitoring circuits for various parameters including full shorting or open circuit on the speaker outputs and full AC input monitoring.

So not sure if it was the reduction of the preamp output (the M1's have a switchable preamp input level, either 0db or -6db and I have it set at 0db). I could have probably accomplished the same thing with the switch vs. re-calibrating the line out levels in the preamp.

Ian is still pushing me towards the Bryston 28B3 monos.... With the massive toroid high capacitance power supplies, he said the headroom in dynamic range for music is beyond anything. I think they run around 1800 watts per channel into 4 ohms which is close the the M1's which are at 2000 watts continuous, but they use a switching power supply. However with 240 volt/15 amp dedicated AC mains for each amp, it is said that the M1's have limitless headroom..... until they fault out that is But I am definitely enjoying these flapjacks.


Slim

You had trouble dialing the SW2000 in due to harmonic distortion. I had the same problem with the EP600v2.

It would be interesting to hear what the difference is, if any, between the Bryston and Anthem. I think James should send you a couple to try out.

I'd love to try out the Bryston Sub's as they look like the lower half of the T's with three 8 inch drivers and the large 800 watt amp. However, I think the dual 12's will be hard to beat. But one never knows.

Mojo, did you get the photos I sent off of the new mounting handles I machined for the M1's?

Yes, Slim. Absolutely gorgeous work. You should freelance!

They look interesting, and certainly carry the Axiom designs through out the Bryston speaker lineup!

The interesting part is the frequency responses listed compared to their Axiom branded sister products. You get what you pay for I guess.

The frequency range of the Axiom EP800 is a little lower 12 vs. 18 hz and it has another 6 db SPL more over the Bryston. I also listed above the amp at 800 watts for the Bryston, but I just read it's 600 watts; so the EP800 has more power at 800 watts and a much larger cabinet. The total surface area of the speakers in the EP800 is 226 sq inches vs. 151 for the Bryston. And in the case with Mojo's EP800 and mine, we have the gut punch switch for afterburner need, as needed.

It appears that the EP800 will push more air, but will the Bryston sub have "tighter" sounding bass with the smaller drivers? I have no idea as I have not compared them side by side, but I'd like to. Just like I'd love to try a pair of the Bryston Mono blocks.

I have had Moon and YBA amps in the past - driving a vast array of speakers - and can say that the more clean power the better the sound.

Funnily enough, while Bryston is only 2 hours from me, I have never tried their stuff! Enjoyed talking with James at the Axiom 35th Anniversary bash a few years back.

Everyone is raving over the new Bryston cubed series amps; I have not heard them yet.

I do have to say that the new Anthem Statement M1 mono blocks I picked up are superior to my Parasound A51 Halo. Much more power and dynamic range, better imaging and the sound stage is more defined and wider. It was really weird, but last night I had a record playing and an instrument came into play while I was grazing around and not paying much attention, I stopped in my tracks to look at the side wall windows.... I could swear that instrument was outside on my deck!! It was really weird.
How in the world does a speaker 'throw' the sound of one particular instrument off to the side 15 feet?? I never had anything like that with the Halo amp.

Plus the low and low mid's in the Model T's are just monstrous with detail like I have not experienced.

I'd love to compare a Bryston 28B3 against these for fun.

The "throw" you are hearing is due to spatial cues the Parasound couldn't reproduce. I doubt the 28B3 can reproduce them. JT prove me wrong by sending my remote buddy Slim 28B3s for comparison. 😁

If JT 'throws' me a pair of 28B3's to compare, I promise I'll spend the time to give it a full run. And pay the return freight.

BTW, I just received my 50 foot run of Canare Quad Star balanced cable for the EP800.. I pulled my 40 foot run of unbalanced Belden cable, replaced the ground lift screw (I had a ground loop with the unbalanced line which the ground lift cured), plugged in my new fancy Japanese cable and fired up all of the usual stuff. My first impression within 13 seconds was the noise level was substantially lower and the articulation of the bass cleaner. But I was not getting the impact I had prior with the Belden cable.

I thought about this and it didn't make sense as the balanced cable should have more throughput. The cleaner sound I expected due to the lower noise floor and thus enhanced signal to noise ratio,, but why less impact? Ah! maybe the phase control needs to be changed. So that is what I did, I played with the phase and voila! That impact was back, but now with a cleaner crisp signal.

I will receive my new quad star twisted pairs speaker cable in two days Let us see if a cable designed for lower noise produces anything more for me. And as Mojo said, you cannot go wrong with twisted pairs and higher voltage due to pairs. These cables work out to 11 Gage with the pair.

I had a similar experience recently:
Soundstage aka Holy Crap !