 Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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The larger floor standing speakers are all 4ohm rated. You really, however, need to look at the graphs to understand the power requirements. If you run a set of subs and do major bass management then you likely are sending most of the power sucking bass to the subs offloading it from the mains.
I have a set of Axiom ADA1000 amps, so they do have a pretty good dynamic headroom on the amp. But I am also powering the largest LFR1100 speakers that Axiom makes. I know that Ian has said that to get the best performance out of these speakers, use the largest amp. I just have the hardest time wrapping my head around how much power you need in a day to day application.
I understand how a speaker works. The wattage from the amp creates the magnetic field in the coil that either attracts or repulses the coil from the big magnet at the back of the speaker driving the cone in and out. The cone has a mass and the faster/further it needs to move requires wattage. The power requirements are not continuous and dynamic peeks can be very high. But how much overhead do you really need?
It's a few thousand to buy a new ADA1500 and trying to wrap my head around if its throwing money against the wall and hoping that it sticks, or if you can and will get some form of audiable improvement or difference to the sound you are getting?
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Oct 2012
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Momentary peaks, momentary distortion.
I trust Ian.
I love my speakers.
It will likely come down to the spl you want.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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But that is the problem. I don't know or don't think that I am getting any major distortion from my current setup. That doesn't mean it is simply not there, but without being able to do a real A/B comparison, then it sure is hard to know if you are getting something out of the investment.
The other part to question is how much does it cost vs how much better it gets. For example, the M80 are pretty good speakers. They cost less than a pair of M100 and far less than the LFR1100. So you can say that the LFR are better sounding. sure, but at 3-5x the cost are you getting that same amount better in sound. NO! But it does sound better? Well, in some cases yes, in other cases, its about the same. So why get them?
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 286
local
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local
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I have the LFRs and run them with one ADA 1500. It sounds glorious, and I wouldn't think about using a lower power amp. However, I do like my music and movies loud. If you don't, then there is probably no reason to change anything!
However, given all the fairly high end equipment in your signature, including a separate pre/pro, running it with a higher end amp would seem logical to me.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Oct 2014
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aficionado
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Being your Anthem has true balanced outputs, you have nice XLRs hanging around. .
I would go for it.
Not only could you fill your awesome room with reference levels no worry. You'd finally have the piece of mind knowing you'd have to spend a whole lot more to get close to the levels of performance you've already achieved.
As to whether or not you'll really notice a difference? I think the piece of mind in just being able to crank, that beautiful AVM60 sitting on your custom rack any time or when your really focused on whatever hobby. Will work itself out over time.
Having an MRX720 my self with M80\VP160 through a ADA1250 3channel. The volumes from -40 to -10 are very miniscule to very loud suddenly. It is some what comforting to know there's head room left when it accidentally gets uber loud.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Aug 2004
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Woof... tough question. With M60s I noticed a big difference going from a 65 WPC (into 8 ohm) HK 3270 receiver to a >200WPC Adcom 555 power amp, but only when the volume was cranked up fairly high. It depends so much on listening levels - each tiny tweak of volume up needs ~double the power.
Is your ADA1000 a 4-channel powering front and rear drivers of the LFR's ? Reason for asking is that if so then going to an ADA1500 4-channel is only going to make a fairly small change in available power for the fronts, going from 250W to 325W. I don't think that would be noticeable... but going from 250W to 750W with a 2-channel ADA1500 would be at high volumes.
My recollection is that Ian is running multiple 2-channel amps but I'm not sure.
Last edited by bridgman; 04/29/18 05:16 AM.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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I am very torn, and regret placing the order right now.
The idea for me was to get a 1500-3 to power the fronts of the LFR and my center channel VP180. The rears of the LFR will be going to a 1000-5 with two of the remaining 3 powering the side QS8's
So from a power point of view, when in stereo mode, it will be like having a two channel 1500 as the center will not be used. When in HT mode, the power will dynamically be send around to either the fronts or the center as it seems the mixes now seem to favour one of the other but not both at the same time as the driving force. As well, I do have a pair of EP500 subs so I don't know if it's all being for nothing.
Further, I honestly never really found the need to crank blast my stereo up to reference levels ever. I guess if my current neighbours start to piss me off that might change, but right now I am keeping the peace.
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 912 Likes: 4
aficionado
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The larger floor standing speakers are all 4ohm rated. You really, however, need to look at the graphs to understand the power requirements. If you run a set of subs and do major bass management then you likely are sending most of the power sucking bass to the subs offloading it from the mains.
I have a set of Axiom ADA1000 amps, so they do have a pretty good dynamic headroom on the amp. But I am also powering the largest LFR1100 speakers that Axiom makes. I know that Ian has said that to get the best performance out of these speakers, use the largest amp. I just have the hardest time wrapping my head around how much power you need in a day to day application.
I understand how a speaker works. The wattage from the amp creates the magnetic field in the coil that either attracts or repulses the coil from the big magnet at the back of the speaker driving the cone in and out. The cone has a mass and the faster/further it needs to move requires wattage. The power requirements are not continuous and dynamic peeks can be very high. But how much overhead do you really need?
It's a few thousand to buy a new ADA1500 and trying to wrap my head around if its throwing money against the wall and hoping that it sticks, or if you can and will get some form of audiable improvement or difference to the sound you are getting?
I believe the question has already been answered, however, it all depends on how loud your listening preferences are, the speakers you are using in your set-up and, of course, the size of the room. Keep in mind that doubling the power rating will only give you approximately 3-4db in additional headroom. For reference purposes, my room is 27' by 12', my system is 9.2 with 3 powered subs. My three channels across the front consist of a VP180 and 2 M80s in a L/R configuration. I am using a Yamaha Pre-Pro with TWO Outlaw 150 w/ch. multi-channel power amps. I have considered in the past replacing them with a more powerful version of the ADA models but considering the price that would be paid and the fact that I currently can turn up the volume well beyond what would ever be normal listening levels and still have a perfectly clear sound, for me, there was really no point. Of course, both amps are a few years old and out of warranty so if one or both of them die, my thoughts about it could change. Of course, with electronics we are always looking for that "holy grail" in sound so the old adage of marketing and sales takes over in our mind. "Sometimes we buy what we want, not what we need".
Last edited by casey01; 05/03/18 05:45 PM.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,281
connoisseur
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Look at it this way, if this was a pissing contest you would be near the front LOL. Its a hobby , buy it enjoy screww everyone else. i have 11 channels at 300 a channel , is that enough i dont know but it gets the job done for now.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
What others think of me is none of my business.
M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 656 Likes: 3
aficionado
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Congrats Matt.
Richard has the right idea, be happy you got the cream of the crop. And the rest of us are in envy. I'm itching for a 1000 for my atmos. channels here on the wet coast.
Hope for your neighbours sake they don't P you off. Or suffer the wrath of your dual 500s.
Myself I went from a Pro Amp. with 450watts A\B to a 3 channel ADA1250.
I wanted the same wattage, The ADA in my opinion is much better plus no fans pesky noises. Have had it at around -10 or 20 DB for a whole day and it doesn't even get warm.
As Craig has stated with lower levels you may not notice any diff. Although at least you'll know there's headroom just in case the neighbours go away and you want to see what it can do.
Plus you can take your XLRs out of storage and avoid any loops or feed back. Give it some time I think you've made a great decision you wont regret.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,387 Likes: 8
President connoisseur
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President connoisseur
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Hi Matt,
Going with more power is one of those things you really need to try. From my own experience I could certainly never go back to less power. Fortunately we have an In-home-trial to allow you to get the answer for yourself with basically no-risk. There are a lot of factors at play; room size, listening level desires, and if you play dynamically recorded music (properly recorded music is a better way to put it). For anyone listening to highly compressed music in a small room where they cannot turn it up, then there is not much point in even trying, but outside of this scenario I highly suggest giving it a try. It could turn out to be the greatest decision you ever made for your system. I should add that you already have the best of the best in your system so a huge power amp with lots of dynamic headroom is the logical next thing to try.
Last edited by Ian; 05/03/18 10:27 PM.
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jul 2009
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connoisseur
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Ian makes a great point, if you listen to newer music thats been bastardized by the loudness wars your not going to reap the benfits of the amp ,the louder its played the worse it sounds. The Genxers and millenials have ruined music with their god damn iphones.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
What others think of me is none of my business.
M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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connoisseur
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Sadly Ian, that offer is only good if you can get someone at Axiom to actually ship the product. It's been a month since I got a notification that Moe was working on the amp. It doesn't matter how many times you phone, or email or try and get in contact with Axiom to get an update. You have charged my Credit Card so you have my money and I don't have the product shipped.
I guess the option is to call VISA fraud department and get the charges reversed as it appears your not working in good faith. Sorry if this is the only means to express my frustration. I do like your products, but if the customer service can't match your customers needs, the only choice is to walk away.
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jul 2009
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connoisseur
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I am not sure what is going on with AXIOM but i know when i bought my amp from EMO it took 3 weeks and then time to ship. Not quite as long as you have waited but maybe they are busier than we realize . Emo's website said 7 days when i ordered but i guess it got busier than expected.Hopefull someone will answer the phone or reply here, its very hard to not get something you want especially in this instant gratification society we now live in.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
What others think of me is none of my business.
M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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connoisseur
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I was at Deerhurst resort for a dance competition with my daughter at the beginning of April. As it's so close to Axiom, I made a detour to drop by and visit them. During that visit, I placed the order and was told by Deb that Andrew had designed a new amp circuit board and they would be in at some point soon.
The agreement was that I'd rather wait for the newly designed board before they start to make mine. It was when I got home that I started to have the seeds of buyers remorse over the price paid vs if I would see any gain from the expense.
Shortly after I posted here I got an email from Axiom that my assumption was the new boards were in and they were making up my amp. Why would you send out a notification that you were working on something unless you had all the parts to finish it. I have heard from Ian that they are expecting the boards in shortly, so it must be that they made up the box, put in the power supply but simply couldn't get any further as they didn't have the 'amp' part to fit inside.
I will wait a bit longer as it hopefully is getting made and will show up.
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,281
connoisseur
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Dont feel bad, Emo been leading me on since 2014 for an upgrade board for 4K and an ATMOS board. Every time its close according to them they go silent. 2 weeks ago they took orders and had people send their processor's in and then a problem and radio silence again. Not much i can do but wait impatiently,at least its summer and can go outside again. I have a brand new amp with 6 channels just waiting for ATMOS, not my best purchase decision this year.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
What others think of me is none of my business.
M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Oct 2014
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aficionado
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Sorry to hear about that Mat.
When I ordered my 1250 it took around a month for the shipping.
The anticipation is killer.
Hopefully they're not having to many issues with the new boards.
At least when it does ship the distance isn't to great, unlike us on the other side of the country.
Here's hoping it comes soon.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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I was at Deerhurst resort for a dance competition with my daughter at the beginning of April. As it's so close to Axiom, I made a detour to drop by and visit them. During that visit, I placed the order and was told by Deb that Andrew had designed a new amp circuit board and they would be in at some point soon.
The agreement was that I'd rather wait for the newly designed board before they start to make mine. It was when I got home that I started to have the seeds of buyers remorse over the price paid vs if I would see any gain from the expense.
Shortly after I posted here I got an email from Axiom that my assumption was the new boards were in and they were making up my amp. Why would you send out a notification that you were working on something unless you had all the parts to finish it. I have heard from Ian that they are expecting the boards in shortly, so it must be that they made up the box, put in the power supply but simply couldn't get any further as they didn't have the 'amp' part to fit inside.
I will wait a bit longer as it hopefully is getting made and will show up. The new design could have had any one or a combination of problems including a manufacturing error. If it was me, I wouldn't cut a new design into production until it was completely verified. Or maybe there was a part shortage. Ian is very eager to please (and is an eternal optimist) and in this case, he shot himself in the foot. To be fair to him though, you agreed to wait for the new design so you took a risk. I know from experience, Ian will go 10 extra miles to ensure satisfaction. In my case, it was 1900 miles. Since you're having the seeds of buyer's remorse, maybe you are second-guessing your purchase which makes what's happened even more bitter. I've been there and done that with the EP600v2. Ten years after my original purchase, he remembered me and made things more than right. I'm a customer for life and so will my son be one day.
House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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OP
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The new amp showed up. It took a bit to get it connected and to re-route all the wires around to get it working.
The net result is about the same. As it is pretty tough to do a true A/B instant comparison, I might be missing subtle nuances. I have tried it on a selection of music and watching some movies. With the volume at -20db on the Anthem AVR, it is pretty darn loud. Enough that the family upstairs complains that I am watching too loud.
I will play with it for a bit more, but I am back to the hard side of trying to justify spending the $2k+ on the upgrade where I am not sure if I am seeing any real discernable difference. Perhaps I am just not using the right source material.
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Apr 2017
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Have you tried only using only the LFR1100's (no sub, center, surrounds) using a very dynamic ranged source (Blu-ray music or high action movie)? This is where you would see if your amp is able to keep your speakers juiced. If you are using your sub, it is taking much of the dynamic load in movie mode making it hard to see if the amp does anything.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Mar 2001
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President connoisseur
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President connoisseur
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Hi Matt,
This says a lot for our ADA1000 series which is great to hear. I would also suggest trying a crossover to the sub at 40 Hz and then some dynamic classical music in stereo. If this doesn't deliver that "extra smile" you may want to just stick with the ADA1000.
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Jul 2009
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You do realize this is also a contest, guy with the most power wins. I want my neighbors lights to dim when i play a movie and a bass note hits.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
What others think of me is none of my business.
M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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OP
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If you are using your sub, it is taking much of the dynamic load in movie mode making it hard to see if the amp does anything. But isn't that the point. I have two subs, and if they are offloading that much from power demand from the amp that I don't require the extra wattage, then why the heck would I want to have it? The only reason would be that the if/when the subs do fail and it's considered too costly to fix them, then perhaps having the extra wattage for the LFR's might be advantageous. But what is going to fail in the subs? the amp. So if amps are the likely component to fail, what is to say that the ADA1500 won't fail around the same time as the subs? in which case it would have been a waste of money as now I'd have to repalce both.
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: May 2014
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Hi Matt,
This says a lot for our ADA1000 series which is great to hear. I would also suggest trying a crossover to the sub at 40 Hz and then some dynamic classical music in stereo. If this doesn't deliver that "extra smile" you may want to just stick with the ADA1000. That will be the next thing to give a try.. but I also think I should wait for the women to leave the house and go shopping so I can try cranking it up a bit more. Now it would be impressive if I can get them to complain that my music is too loud when they are out shopping.
Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 140
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But isn't that the point. I have two subs, and if they are offloading that much from power demand from the amp that I don't require the extra wattage, then why the heck would I want to have it? The only reason would be that the if/when the subs do fail and it's considered too costly to fix them, then perhaps having the extra wattage for the LFR's might be advantageous. But what is going to fail in the subs? the amp. So if amps are the likely component to fail, what is to say that the ADA1500 won't fail around the same time as the subs? in which case it would have been a waste of money as now I'd have to repalce both.
You are describing the law of diminishing returns. There comes a point where you have to spend incredible amounts of money to get the most marginal of benefits. To some, it's worth it, to others, meh. If you can't detect the improvement or measure it to your satisfaction, I agree, it may not be worth the upgrade. My 14 year old doesn't understand why his iPhone/ear buds isn't good enough for me. Heck, he prefers his Xbox headset to watch movies than my full 5.1.2 Atmos setup.
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Re: Are larger amps worth it?
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 37
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Just in case this might help tip the scales, I'm moving my ADA1500-3 on Audiogon: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis918a4-axiom-audio-ada-1500-3-tubeMoving my system to a much smaller room, and no longer need the juice. good luck!
M80v2, VP150v2, QS4v2, Onkyo 805, ADA1500-3, Sonos
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