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Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430614 12/07/18 08:53 PM
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Just out of sheer curiosity, how does one measure a soundstage?

Oh and btw, a friend of mine bought the Denon AVR-X6500 and liked it so much that he decided he wanted the same thing with more power so he was going to buy the 8500. I convinced him to let me "borrow" the 6500 for a bit to test out my new speakers (which arrive today according to FedEx). He still bought the 8500 but has until Jan 12th to return the 6500 I guess due to special holiday return policies.

Not sure if this will be a good idea or not though. I had/have the Denon 2300 and absolutely hated it which is why I bought the Sony STR-DN 1080 which really woke up my current speakers. The 2300 sounded fine but felt so low on power compared to the Sony it replaced (I think it was the 1050). So now I will either hate the Denon 6500 or love it and can't afford it lol.


M60
VP180
M2i
Sony STR-DN 1080
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430615 12/07/18 09:20 PM
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Soundstage has dimensions of width, depth and height. If you have your v4 set up properly in relation to your MLP and your room is "right", the width should extend beyond the speaker width. The depth starts from the front of your speakers all the way to your front wall or beyond even. With well-recorded material, that depth is composed of layers or parallel planes from front-to-back. Height is measured from the floor to the ceiling and with well-recorded material, you can hear voices/instruments at various heights. I had none of this with my M80 v2.

In Sade's The Sweetest Taboo, the rain is 5 feet behind the front of my M5s. It's a sheet of water covering my front wall. Maybe with a better room and better speakers (?) that depth would extend beyond my front wall. In Belkis, Queen of Sheba: War Dance, the drums at the beginning are at the far left, beyond the width of my M5, wayyyyy back there in the depth of the soundstage and a quarter of the way up to my ceiling. Anything by Trilok Gurtu is layers upon layers for front-to-back soundstage. It's like you can reach out and touch each layer.

Then there's imaging. Instruments in most well-recorded tracks with the v4 are very well-defined and there is lots of space/silence between them. With the v2, the images were fuzzy and piled on top of each other. St. Louis Blues by Wycliffe Gordon is absolutely spectacular and seductive and is a good example of what very good speakers placed well in a good room with good EQ can do.

The above is all 2.1.

There is no difference in audio quality between the 6500 and the 8500. You should definitely be able to hear a difference between the 6500 and your Sony if you calibrate your room using Denon's Audyssey. If a receiver doesn't have XT 32 or equivalent, I stay away from it. I can't say enough about my Onk and its implementation of XT 32.

Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430617 12/08/18 12:23 AM
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I don't know what you look like but I have this visual of someone crawling around a room, going up the walls, on the ceiling and the floor measuring with a tape measure to find out where the sound starts and stops. Frankly it's disturbing....lol

Not sure my friend was concerned about the audio quality. He was pleased with the 6500. Pretty sure he just wanted the 8500 for the 13.2 channel capability wink

The Denon 2300 I have has the Audyssey XT, not the XT32. Like i said, it felt less powerful then the older Sony I was using and occasionally, it sounded like sounds were being dropped from the center channel. Like someone was talking from a distance but they were actually right there. Never could figure it out. Could not wait to get rid of that thing.

That's why the 1080 was purchased. But then I found out that there is no expand ability for the 1080, no preouts. And it doesn't upscale 1080P/60 to 4K! So I might take it back if the 6500 doesn't piss me off like the 2300 did.


M60
VP180
M2i
Sony STR-DN 1080
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430619 12/08/18 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted By Dragbug
I don't know what you look like but I have this visual of someone crawling around a room, going up the walls, on the ceiling and the floor measuring with a tape measure to find out where the sound starts and stops. Frankly it's disturbing....lol

It's even worse than you imagine smile

After the second or third round of experimentation with room arrangement you end up with all the room dimensions memorized, so all you have to do is point at where the sounds are coming from and the numbers pop into your head.

Last edited by bridgman; 12/08/18 01:25 AM.

M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430620 12/08/18 01:53 AM
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In my room, the M3v4 and M5 both paint images in a 3d space from front to back. The M3v4 images are 720p and the M5 are 1080p. Maybe the soon-to-arrive M100v4 will be 4K. smile

I was describing this to a guy at work and he says it's not right. It's fake and shouldn't sound that way. He says it doesn't sound that way at a bar, at a rock concert or at a concert hall.

For those who enjoy their presentation like this guy, my v2 will be in the refurb store soon. Please be my guest. Me on the other hand...I don't care what it's supposed to sound like. I care about how it makes me feel; it's about the emotion. Having said that, I'm pretty damned sure the way I'm hearing it is how the engineer intended. The Eric Clapton Unplugged concert was a nightmare on v2. On v4, the images are exactly where I'd expect them to be. It's a whole different illusion and it is spectacularly and eerily better.

I expect fully active LFRs to be 8K. smile

Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430621 12/08/18 05:33 AM
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Well I have good and bad news. I got my speakers in this evening and wired them up. The sound volume was much better at the same setting then with the previous speakers. Voices were so much clearer. I was very excited and convinced the wife to let me put in a movie to really test them out. I put in Avengers Infinity War and that's when I heard the unmistakable sound of distortion coming from the bottom 6 1/2 speaker of one of the M60's. Is it possible a wire came loose? Will I void a warranty if I pull the speaker to check? I know that sometimes shit can happen but did I really get a defective speaker? I am sooooo sad right now.

EDIT: Not a loose or crossed wire. You can feel friction on the cone when you lightly press on the speaker. It's a bad speaker frown What are the odds? I am so bummed right now.

Last edited by Dragbug; 12/08/18 05:52 AM.

M60
VP180
M2i
Sony STR-DN 1080
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430623 12/08/18 03:25 PM
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Deb will fix you up with a new one. I bet it still sounds better than that old M22.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430624 12/08/18 05:50 PM
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lol well, aside from the distortion sure it does smile Any idea if the wires are soldered to the speaker posts or just clipped? I can't turn it up to any real volume without it distorting. Might have to hook the M22's back up until it's resolved. Probably won't hear back from Deb until Monday at least.


M60
VP180
M2i
Sony STR-DN 1080
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430625 12/08/18 06:02 PM
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They are spade terminals and they're keyed so you can't connect them wrong. The bad driver will not affect the imaging and soundstage. Just disconnect one terminal to take it out of the circuit, put the driver back and enjoy until you get another one. Check all other drivers and the 180 in the meantime.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...
Dragbug #430631 12/08/18 09:02 PM
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Thanks, I was hoping I could just disconnect that single speaker. Seems a waste to not be able to enjoy the rest of the system for one speaker. I did check the rest of the drivers and the 180 they sound just fine from what I can tell. I will disconnect the bad driver and check again but pretty sure I only have the one. Everything else sounded pretty damn sweet the short time i was playing the movie.


M60
VP180
M2i
Sony STR-DN 1080
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