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#430978 - 01/20/19 01:51 PM Value Reciever for Amps
snazzed Offline
local

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 207
Hey all, long time no see!

So I've been loving up my Axiom speakers for a few years now, but...

I've moved and my HT space is now much larger and I'm having to run my Denon AVR-1910 at or near -0dB for movies and sometimes you can hear the strain. Or at least I can. My wife and kids don't seem to notice/care.

So I'm looking at an Axiom ADA-1000 but I'll need a new Reciever because that Denon doesn't have pre-amp outs.

So if I don't need built in Amps, and I just need pre-outs, what Reciever do you guys recommend? I'm looking at the Outlaw 976 but it just doesn't have some of the bells and whistles that things like the Marantz AV 7705 does.

Thoughts?
Byron Armstrong
_________________________
M22, VP150, QS8 <--all v2
Sub: Outlaw LFM1-Plus
Denon AVR1910, Panasonic Plasma 50" S2

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#430980 - 01/20/19 03:47 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
LaRazaUnida Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Denton, Texas
Just adding to the question—

When looking at separates, is there a large advantage of going 3 channel amp to power LCR and letting the receiver handle the rest of the surrounds vs choosing say a 7 channel amp? Just seems like a more expensive receiver is kind of useless when coupled with a 7 channel amp.

Thanks for the input.

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#430982 - 01/20/19 05:28 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
Mojo Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
How do you know you're running out of amp power? Did you compare the Denon's channel gain for your M22s and QS8s at your old vs. new place? If for example at your old place they were at 0dB and now they're at +3dB, it means your amp has to supply twice as much power to maintain reference SPL - at least that's how my Onk works because I've tested it. Even at +3dB, that Denon should have enough power unless your room is over-damped. How far from the fronts are you, how big is the room and what is on the floor, ceiling and wall surfaces? Are you able to take any voltage and current readings at the speaker terminals to calculate the power? If you can at least measure voltage using a 200Hz tone you can figure out the power from the impedance curve.

I see a gap in the market just like you. I'd like to buy an Onk (because I trust Onks) pre/pro only with all the same bells and whistles as one of their receivers. They can charge me the same price as a receiver so long as they employ a high fidelity design.

As for the 3-channel amp question, it's really a matter of whether or not you'll hit power limits on the surrounds if you power them from a receiver. I doubt my surrounds see more than 15W peaks on the most dynamic movie scenes. The center is a different story. As I've reported, my center sees 100W+ peaks.

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#430984 - 01/21/19 08:40 AM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
TDIPablo Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/04/17
Posts: 128
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
To ATMOS or not to ATMOS, that is the question you must answer.

If no ATMOS and you want to get into separates, the Outlaw 976 or the Emotiva MC-700 would be high on my list.

If you think ATMOS is in your future, I've been happy with my Onkyo TX-NR686 which has a "claimed" 100wpc (10 more than the Denon?) and I'm running a similar speaker group as you (M22, VP180, QS-4's). The VP180 is a 4ohm beast and the Onkyo is handling it fine (I did add some extra ventilation though to keep it cool). I would think any of the mid-tier+ AVR's from all the suspects would be a good upgrade from the entry-level 2015 Denon model?

Of course, more robust brands with better internal amplification should also be considered. ARCAM, NAD, Rotel, Anthem, etc...

Every now and then I contemplate a full upgrade into separates. Top contenders for me would be the Marantz AV7705, Emotiva RMC-1, Anthem AVM-60, and the Bryston SP-4 (wonder if Axiom owners could get a discount ;-) ).

I'll stay out of the power amp recommendations. Definitely, the ADA's are worthy contenders.

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#431008 - 01/22/19 12:22 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
snazzed Offline
local

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 207
Thanks for the input, all.

Mojo: When I first got into Home Theater it was explained to me that 0 is what the material was Mastered for. Turning it up into + territory risks clipping, so as far as I'm concerned -0 = Max Volume. If this incorrect feel free to educate me.

How do I know I'm running out of power? I turn it up to -0 and it's not loud enough.

And for reference the HT Room in my old house was a converted study, and it came in at about 1,350 cubic feet, and I was 7.5 feet from the screen.

In the new house it's a large living room with 12 foot ceilings. It measures about 7,750 cubic feet and I'm 12 feet from the screen. (I also need a bigger TV!)

I used to run movies at -12dB
Now I watch movies at -0.


Anyway... If anyone else has suggestions for favorite Recievers I'd love to hear them.

Thanks
Byron
_________________________
M22, VP150, QS8 <--all v2
Sub: Outlaw LFM1-Plus
Denon AVR1910, Panasonic Plasma 50" S2

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#431009 - 01/22/19 01:34 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
Mojo Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5451
I agree you shouldn't go above zero. I've noticed on my Onk, right around -3dB, I start detecting distortion. That however is unbearable so it's not even a practical concern.

My gain setting depends on source and program material though. On BluRays recorded in HD MA via my PS3, I never have to go above -20dB (this is less than a half watt nominal). With Netflix from my TV via HDMI, I'm usually good at -15dB but I do sometimes have to go to -10dB. Spotify via Chrome Video is usually -15dB but some songs I have to run at -5dB. I am in a 4200 cu. ft. room and 13' away from the fronts, 14' from the centre and 10' from the sides.

How do you know your M22s are not compressing? Did you ever run them as loud as now at your old place?

What is the calibration level in your Denon for your fronts?

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#431012 - 01/22/19 03:17 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
TDIPablo Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/04/17
Posts: 128
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Ok, that is a significant change in room size. Sounds like you went from a 12x14x8 room to a 25x25x12 great room! Yeah, I can definitely see the M22's and VP150 struggling to fill this with the inadequate power out of the Denon. Even the Outlaw sub won't be able to fill this massive space!

Simply upgrading your AVR is not likely going to cut it and at some point you are just going to introduce distortion to your speakers if you are trying to replicate "volume" levels experienced in your study.

You can approach this piecemeal and do one upgrade at a time depending on budget. Definitely your LCR's should be bigger. You have the space to go full tilt on M100's and a VP180! Then for sure you are a candidate for $1000 AVR's outputting at least 125wpc. I would honestly look at an Emotiva MC-700 and ADA 5-Channel amp combo (or an Emotiva A-500/XPA 5) if you don't think you will be doing ATMOS. And definitely a sub upgrade. 350W amp is nothing compared to an 800W EP-800! (Though even the EP500 and EP600 would be improvements).

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#431013 - 01/22/19 03:21 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
snazzed Offline
local

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 207
You're overcomplicating this, I think.

90 Wpc Reciever.
Old HT small. Sound good.
New HT BIG. Not loud enough.
Want Amp. Go louder.
Maybe 180Wpc Reciever. Go louder too.

No, I never ran my system this loud in my old HT.

I don't know what you mean by M22s "compressing".

The right main is calibrated to 0 and the left is -1.5dB


I'm 87% certain that I simply need more power now that my room is 6x larger.
_________________________
M22, VP150, QS8 <--all v2
Sub: Outlaw LFM1-Plus
Denon AVR1910, Panasonic Plasma 50" S2

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#431014 - 01/22/19 03:44 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
snazzed Offline
local

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 207
Thanks TDIpablo. Very concrete suggestions. I will look into those!

Byron
_________________________
M22, VP150, QS8 <--all v2
Sub: Outlaw LFM1-Plus
Denon AVR1910, Panasonic Plasma 50" S2

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#431015 - 01/22/19 03:47 PM Re: Value Reciever for Amps [Re: snazzed]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6188
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
"Compressing" (dynamic compression) in this context means that the increase in sound level stops increasing at the same** rate as power level, generally because the drivers are starting to approach mechanical limits.

Nobody is disagreeing with your statement that you need more power; the question is how much more power you need and whether just adding power will be sufficient.

You are trying to fill 6x the room size so needing to go up 12dB is not a surprise (although it seems a bit higher than I would have expected). Unfortunately 12dB translates into ~16x the power requirement. You probably won't need 16x as much power as you have today because you probably weren't at the limits of your current receiver in the old room, but by the same token there's a good risk that 2x the power will not be enough either.

Bigger speakers tend to help with SPL requirements in two ways - one is power handling ability, and the other is efficiency (more SPL for same power).

That said, doubling the power will definitely make a noticeable difference, and you'll probably get an additional improvement from the pattern (I don't want to say fact) that high end receivers & amps tend to have more headroom above their power rating than lower powered units do.

What frequency are you crossing over to the subs at ? I'm asking because you might have an opportunity to get a bit more out of your system by bumping the crossover frequency up a bit, depending on where it is now. That would not make the system any louder for a given volume setting, but might let you turn the volume up a bit further before hitting amp or speaker limits.


Edited by bridgman (01/22/19 03:50 PM)
_________________________
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
LFR1100

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