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Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431235 02/08/19 03:03 PM
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Hmmm....any good speaker will NOT colour the sound, just reproduce what the recording engineer intended, should we not hold amps to the same standard, if indeed they are somehow "voicing" them?


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Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431236 02/08/19 03:47 PM
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If that were true, all $10k+ speaker pairs should sound the same when fed a signal from the same source equipment. They simply don't based on their engineering.

Judging by the wide range of opinions and reviews of amps, there is never a true consensus of which one is the best. Everyone's ears are different and therefore preferences are biased. Like I said, there is no reason to like high distortion and Finnish death metal bands, yet, there is a market for it. I know I have a preference for mid's over high's. My son, it's all about the bass, no treble.

Last edited by TDIPablo; 02/08/19 03:48 PM.
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431237 02/08/19 04:10 PM
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Adrian, every speaker, good or bad, will color the sound. It's impossible using current technology to achieve a ruler flat response. Some speaker companies intentionally add emphasis or de-emphasize specific bands. Others choose to produce as flat a response as possible but even this approach has limitations.

Pablo, I tried direct and otherwise with the Denon, Pioneer and Onk. Neither the Denon or the Onk could reproduce the dynamics like the Pioneer and transient response was much better with the Pioneer regardless of setting. As for the sound, even on direct, the Pioneer sounded different, as I described, compared to the Denon and the Onk. The Denon and Onk sounded the same on direct with the exception that the Onk can go louder.


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Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431239 02/08/19 11:29 PM
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Yes, all speakers sound different due to any number of variables, but the "goal" is (for most serious audio manufacturers anyway) to make a violin sound like a violin (Paul Barton?), piano like a piano, recording like the engineer intended ect. In other words neutral. I'm not saying anyone has built a speaker that someone could not tell the difference between a live cellist vs the same through a speaker (THAT would be an interesting double blind test), only that they should be trying to get as close to that presentation as possible without colouration. So should amp designers, if in fact they are able to colour them.

If people like a different sound, they can tinker with their settings, otherwise better to start as close to uncoloured as poss imo.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431241 02/09/19 12:43 AM
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My sensible brain agrees. Then I listen to the Pioneer and exclaim "I like that (coloration)!".

Who is right? The fella who likes to sit up close to his fronts so he can hear an intimate presentation from his speakers or the fella who likes to sit well back and take in how his room colors the sound? smile

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431242 02/09/19 01:48 AM
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They are both right.
Some people may only know a colouration while others have been lucky enough to hear without. Even a venue has colourations {Eg. A small venue vs. a large hall or arena.}
Someone who has been to a lot of venues and only knows an H.T.I.B. or all in one system. May only know a colouration.

Hopefully we can manage reaching enough power without maxing out to soon. And of course get decent systems vs all in ones.

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431243 02/09/19 02:48 AM
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Indeed! In another decade, these big speakers and high power amps, and all the problems associated with them, may go the way of the gramophone. I was reading in IEEE Spectrum magazine how companies are working on taking custom measurements of listeners' ears and developing personalized head-related transfer functions. These can then be used to create virtual images within headphones that will mirror real life. We'll be wearing Atmos+++ on our heads!


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431245 02/09/19 10:09 AM
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Black Mirror style! The grain. Dangerous stuff

Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431246 02/09/19 10:56 PM
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I took the Onk apart earlier today, removed the power supply capacitors and tested them in an RC circuit with my buddy's signal generator and scope. Even with the tolerance factored in, they were all way low. I replaced them with Nichicon caps I tested and bought from my buddy. The Onk mated to my M100s now exceeds the peak reached by the Pioneer/M5 pairing! That's because the Pioneer is hitting its limits.

Besides the peaks, it sounds a lot better. I still like the sound of the Pioneer better but that's because Air Studios fudged with it. I'm now toying with the idea of getting Electronic Craftsmen to build me a toroidal transformer for the Onk.

Can't wait to get the ADAs in here!


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Out with the old and in with the new
Mojo #431248 02/10/19 03:58 PM
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Update on the M5/Pioneer/Chromecast Audio/external amp system in the living room:

I've been listening with what Pioneer calls the Sound Retriever mode. This system offers much higher fidelity than my Onk/M100/800 system in my main space. It can't beat the wide and deep soundstage and image holography of my main system though and I attribute that to the room, the distance between the speakers, the distance to the walls, the distance to the MLP and Audyssey XT32.

In Lee Ritenour's Pappa was a Rolling Stone, I can hear every bass note including all the microdynamics. You don't need a golden ear to hear how much better the living room system is with dynamics compared to the bigger and more expensive system. I don't have a sub in the living room system. Everything is better frankly except for the soundstage and imaging as I described above. The holography is still there but it's not nearly as pronounced. Maybe with better electronics in the main system, those images behind the M100s would be even more eerie!

Recall I started with a 17 year old low end Denon and I was very happy with that. Now I am elated. The more I give the M5s, the better they sound. Others have reported this too. And that's really the only downside to the M5s - sensitivity. These speakers are already floor-standing speaker killers; I can't imagine how much better they'd be with an 8" woofer like the Braxiom Mini-T or maybe even a 10" woofer...LOL!

I can't wait to give them a full helping of the ADA-1500.

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