Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater AVR specs explained - need more power?

Hey,

I was reading my AVR specs on pioneer's webpage :
https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-LX701#specs

Power Output per channel 4ohm - 2ch driven 220

If i'm running 5.1, would this number be lower due to additional channels driven?
It's not an advertised number

Considering picking up a separate power amp to run my M80s and possibly my VP180 center as well, my front soundstage doesn't feel as "grand" as it should.

Future plans will include 2 more channels for surround backs

Looking for suggestions

Thanks!

"If i'm running 5.1, would this number be lower due to additional channels driven?"

Yes, indeed. Note too that the 220W figure is based on 1KHz input (with only 2 channels driven).

Are you on v4 M80s? How far apart are they, how far is your main listening position, how far away are they from the front wall and side walls?

I ask because you can make your soundstage bigger, even with less power, if you have the right version and position them well within the room and with respect to you.

Here are some pictures I could find on my phone, I have since painted and done a few other cosmetic things.

Before screen - speaker placement

After screen - the center channel is pulled underneath the screen

The screen is 120"

The speakers are about 9-9.5 feet apart on an angle pointed to the main seating position

10' ceilings

I'm on V3 M80's, V4 VP180, V4 QS8

And you are sitting from where the photos were taken? Is that about 9 feet from each speaker?

All 3 of your mains would greatly benefit from more power. Being all rated 4 Ohms.
I have M80v4, VP160 QS10 M3 M22 in my system and use an ADA1250x3 for my mains.
My Room is about 19x24x7 with one side of the 24 foot open to rooms/toilet etc. The ADA has no problems filling all the space I have.

m80's are 10'6" center to center from eachother and the main seating position is 11' away

That's a respectable geometry. Given how close the speakers are to the side walls, you won't have a soundstage outside of speaker boundaries but you should have a nice soundstage within. It should also be tall with your 10 foot ceilings.

In 2.1, you should have no problem getting a wall of sound. Is the speaker polarity correct at the receiver and speakers? Also try with and without sub. If your sub is not dialed in correctly, it can mess up the imaging. Finally, try not toeing in which may widen the soundstage.

AV equipment manufacturers like Pioneer don't like to give you any real usable spec.

The M80 speakers are listed at 4ohm, you do know that this number is just really a guidline. If you look on the graphs that Ian gives with his speakers, you will see that in the deep bass sound the speakers are dipping below the 4ohm power, and at the 1K tone level that your Pioneer gave you an amperage rating, the speakers are running at 9ohm. So I don't know if the Pioneer is really going to give you your 220 watts of power. And the bigger question to hand is that Peek before they start melting inside?

You can get away with a lower power receiver if you put in a good enough sub and set your crossover high enough so that you really are not drawing any power from your receiver below the 100hz where the amount of current required for the speakers is large. The second option is don't ever play it load.

Not trying to sound like a snob, but I have yet to ever get a good sound from any of my speakers I have ever owned from a Pioneer (or Yamaha, modern Denon, Merantz, Onkio) I have tried a whole load of different models and eventually decided it just didn't give a good sound.

I run an Anthem AVM60 with an Axiom ADA1000 amp and found that I get a good clean sound that I like. In my bedroom, I have an old Nakamichi AV1 that is an old analogue amp and it again sounds great. it can breathe. It has life inside of it. I find that most of the mass market receivers all sound compressed.

I am looking into a separate power amp for my M80's, between the Anthem 225 or 325, Rotel 1582mkii and to a lesser extent the parasound A21...I've looked at the Axiom ADA amps.. are they really that good?

How have you established that you need more power? Do you have the soundstage I described? You should be able to see distinct images on that stage even at low volumes. If not, your problem isn't power but something else.

I have tried a few different things, 2.1 -5.1, wile 2.1 sounds very good and clear I feel that the 5.1 things are not as impressive... I'm more or less interested If i can even notice a difference with additional power

You have QS8s. My QS8v2 were total crap compared to the OhSoHoly QS10HPs I have now.

And you don't have a center?

i have v4 qs8's and v4 vp180

Sorry, I missed that about the 180 in your signature.

I have not heard the QS8v4 so I cannot say. However, given what I have heard of the rest of the v4 line, I would not bet against the QS8v4.

I suspect your receiver. Not that it doesn't have enough power. Rather, its channel steering and rendering of details (accuracy) is not up to your standard.

I notice you're no stranger to ADA amps, have you auditioned any other brands in similar price points?

Emotiva, Anthem, Rotel.. etc

I imagine the ADA's pair well with Axiom speakers

I have listened to many different speakers. I cannot say I have listened to any other amps. Receivers certainly and I can tell you there are audible differences between them even in two channel. Receiver sound processing capability varies from one manufacturer to another and even between models. My Onkyo TX-NR818 was an incredible upgrade for my v2. Unfortunately for most it has a bad rap due to HDMI board problems which were fixed on mine and they re-capped and gave me a new transformer to boot.

Minorc, I have a suggestion. Buy one of these and see how the sound changes. If you don't like it, take it back.

https://m.visions.ca/#/home-productdetail?productId=34921&sku=STRDN1080

The ADA amps. will give you very similar power rating for a fair bit cheaper. All of us with them love them. If anything it probably sounds similar to the Anthems you've mentioned and still cost you a fair bit less. But it will be more similar to a Bryston in reality since they have teamed up 5 or 6 years ago.
In theory "proper designed amps. shouldn't sound different within their ranges"

Did Axiom collaborate with Bryston for their Amp line? Thought it was only for the model T speaker

No. Axiom's amps are totally different than Bryston's.

In one vid. Mr. Tanner states they've helped Axiom with their amps. The topology is totally different as Bryston doesn't do class D. A beefy toroid stage is a beefy toroid either way.

It's totally an Axiom design. Sure, Andrew or Tom may have picked up the phone one day and called their Bryston colleagues to get opinions about an area they were stuck on but that's the extent of it.

The DSP however is another matter altogether.

A little update:

Picked up a Rotel RMB-1585 5 channel amp from my local Hifi shop, I plan on eventually going into separates instead of an all in one, so this is a step in that direction.

I noticed an immediate difference, happy with the purchase.

In soundstage and imaging in 2-channel?

Congrats!

Ya that's a slight step up power wise compared to any AVR.
http://www.rotel.com/product/rmb-1585

I didn't know anyone in Sudbury sold anything this pricey. (i used to live there)

Although there are limits as to whether more power will make any sound difference, compared to an AVR, depending on the volume level, depending on how low the impedance goes for your entire set and how much power it pulls even at lower SPL, an amp can certainly make a difference. This is for overall SPL though (not sound 'character'). It is highly improbable you would hear any 'sound character' differences between amps in a controlled test. No one has been able to pull it off yet.
The AVRs, well who knows what kind of things are put in the circuitry paths of those things.

Chess, that Rotel has an upgraded power cord compared to his old AVR.

I have a Rotel in my office setup. I like it. Definitely more power than my 1980s Harmon Kardon which served me well for years and now does duty in the father in laws' garage.
I also like the fact that is has A / B speaker switching so i can swap between my two speaker sets on the desk. I can also test new desktop speakers in a rough a/b manner with it (not level matched of course which is the limitation).

There's nothing not to like about it. I'm envious.

Awwwwwww damn! It has two fans!! Cheaters!!!

May be a placebo maybe I have the golden ear but in any case I don't regret my purchase and I have comfort knowing I've got all the power I need.

With this 80+lb unit in my stand.. lol

Agreed. I am curious what you are hearing. Are you hearing:

- wider soundstage
- deeper soundstage
- improved image clarity
- greater space between the images
- improved dynamics
- improved fidelity (eg. bass)

Wow, forgot to reply to this thread.

Apologies!

Since purchasing this amplifier and moving to separates after picking up an Arcam AV860, I can say with confidence that every aspect of my home theatre has improved.

Might be strange to say but I no longer feel fatigued after long usage, crystal clear presentation hearing little details I missed with the old setup. The ability to play it LOUD without distortion and harshness.

Thanks

Now i just need to sort out what I'm doing with the M80v2's I have... but v4's or get the M100's. I have a turntable coming and will be getting into some 2 channel audio really soon.

I thought you have M80v3. How about M2v4 that you can move into the room and get a deep and wide soundstage outside of the speaker boundaries? They're more linear than an M100 but won't go as loud. But you're only 11 feet away. Then you can upgrade the QS8 to QS10.

M5s would work too. M2v4 and M5v4 is better than M80v2. I can hear Alan saying "Dammit Mojo. You should know better. You know it's a matter of degree." Yeah, I know better. M2s and M5s are better.

The plan (so far) was to upgrade the M80's to something newer, move my QS8's to the side wall for surround sides and move a set of on walls to the surround back channels.

Are you saying the M2 and M5's are a better speaker than the M80's with the larger cabinets and more drivers how is that even possible?

Everyone who heard my M80v2 against M5v4, M3v4, M2v4 felt the performance was more emotionally involving and impactful with the v4. The 800 was in the mix. MLP was 12 feet in a 4200 cu ft room. I didn't run the "test" with M50v4 but I can tell you even the M50v4 is better than M80v2.

What is "better"? I've written a ton about this so I'll just summarize. First, the soundstage is more believable. It starts at the front plane of the drivers and moves back. With proper placement and room, the soundstage wraps around with well-recorded material. Second, imaging on that soundstage is more precise and 3D. Third, there is pop and snap in snares, drums, etc. Fourth, the midrange is better with M2 and M5. It's good with M3 and M50 but more mellow due to the lack of the dedicated mid-range. Fifth, the highs are more airy, dispersive and fun to listen to. Sixth, they all acoustically disappear better so you hear music rather than speakers.

All of these qualities exist in all the v4 I mentioned. The active LFRs take all this up many notches. The M3 and M50 are like 480p and the M2 and M5 are like 720p. M100s are like 1080p. But the M100s don't disappear as well.

The smaller boxes and driver complements lead to more of a point source than the floor-standers. So the smaller guys disappear better. But they can't go as loud. But how loud do you need?

The M2s, M3s and M50s go as loud as anyone needs at 12 feet. The M5s are good to 14 feet. M100s can go out to 18 feet. More than that and you're looking at LFRs.

The disappearing act is very important to me and so is imaging and soundstage. I love the M2s for those reasons. M5s too but M2s with sub are more linear than M5s with sub or no sub. Some may prefer the extra warmth of the M5s over the M2. It's a real tough call between those two.

Does this help?

I can 2nd the M2. The amount and quality of sound is surprising for its size. The M2 combined with a EP500 is a killer stereo setup. As for movies we have a 5.1 setup in the family room (VP150 and QS10 surrounds) and it does not disappoint.

I second rlev's post! Most agreed!

Going from towers to M2s in that room as mains for a theater would not be my recommendation -but we know little about the room.

Minorc, If you could give us full room dimensions it would help. We’ve established you sit 11’ away from speakers placed 10’6” apart in a room with 10’ ceilings and employ a membrane up front that covers a concave (almost parabolic) alcove.

How wide is the room and long? What is happpening at the rear of the room?

Or..... Just buy large towers again and let Dirac in your AVR860 help you out. Dirac is pretty dang robust and frankly deals with the issues caused by “too much” easily.

The M2s are nice (heard powered ver. in a computer setup) but not my choice for an explosion in a soundtrack. Large speakers are capable of the soundstage and imaging of small mini monitors if set up properly in the room.

The M2 computer speakers are powered by a 70W max amp with absolutely no dynamic headroom in the power brick. I suppose as computer speakers, that's enough. I have the Audiobytes which are M0 and they are just fine for a 10x10 room.

So the M2 computer speakers may not be a great comparison to bookshelves or on-walls. The bookshelves and OW can take 600W peaks. In my 4200 cu ft set-up, I've measured 105dBC peaks at 12 feet away with an 800. The peaks may actually be higher because my meter may not be capturing the true peaks. In my living room, I've pushed them cleanly to 103dBC with my cheap Sony sub.

Yes, the M5s will go to 107dBC and the M100s to 109 cleanly in the same room and distance. I've found in my main room, anything more than 103dBC peaks is perhaps a waste?

Regarding imaging and soundstage, I have never, no matter how much I tried, been able to get the M100s to image and soundstage like M2s or M5s or even M3s and M50s. The M100 imaging is fantastic between the speakers, they have decent wrap-around with well-recorded material but they cast an acoustic shadow behind them. What i mean by that is I can't see the image "through" their large cabinets. This may sound peculiar but once you hear it, there's no going back. The actives don't have that problem. It's like they are not there at all!

And yet, while the M5 and M2 disappear better than the M100, the lushness of the M100 can't be found in either. One has to figure out what is more important to their needs. My buddy got tranced by the M100s when he first heard them 2 years ago at my place. They sounded like real music more so than M5s and M2s. He finally gave in and he's now tripping out at his house with them but every time he's over, he marvels at the disappearing act the M5s, M2s and actives create. He will never, and I mean absolutely never, get that with the M100s. But he has the lushness!

Indeed minorc has to consider his room and needs. For me, the disappearing act is more important than the lushness. I want the illusion of not listening to a pair of speakers but rather the performance.

For what it's worth, I don't have that same issue with my 100s as Mojo. I have found the acoustic sweet spot with mine and they have completely disappeared. Also, with the imaging and soundstage they are amazing. When I'm playing classical or big band, Glenn Miller, it's as though I am sitting in the middle of the orchestra. I've never had speakers that completely surround me in sound. I can literally "see" where every instrument is located. It took me a while to get the AVR settings and speaker placement correct but I now have it matched to my room and MLP, which is 15 feet away. The QS8 v2s are okay during movies but I know that there will be a massive improvement once I add the QS10 v4s.

My m100s are sitting about 8 feet out from the rear wall and 6 feet in from the side walls and 15 feet between the towers, slightly angled to the MLP

Canes, wow! You've reached audio Nirvana. I am so happy for you, man! I hope you don't have to give up any of that space.

Canes, would you mind telling me what the left and right levels are set to in your Denon and the volume setting you typically listen with?

At my buddy's enjoying the M100s he stole from me.

12 foot vaulted ceilings make a big difference!

Mojo, my left is at +2 and the right is at +1. Music is typically between -15 to -10 volume. Movies I'll take louder depending on the movie I am watching. I use the pure direct surround setting. Some of the music surround settings sound artificial to me.

I still have not run audyssey. My current settings are based on what my ears are hearing.

My wife is even enjoying the speakers. She cranks up her music when she's cleaning and you can hear it clearly upstairs. Our stairs haven't been sound proofed yet and I'm going to add additional soundproofing to the ceiling, another layer of drywall and some green goo.

Canes,
I’m in envy of your room!
Having that much space available to do as you like.
Very cool.

Cheers,
Jeff

I love the flexibility of the room and I'm going to add additional wiring in the event the wife wants to change the room around. I've already mapped off the current set up so I'll know placement. I don't think she will ever switch the room around but it's always good to have a back-up plan just in case.

Thanks, Canes. I'm real glad you've discovered spatial resolution with your system. The actives push that envelope further. I suggest you give XT32 a go. I expect it to further define the images you see and create more air/diffusivity to the presentation. Start with a 3 measurement calibration in the proximity of your head. Remember you can always disable Audyssey.

Given your channel settings, you will see an improvement with external amps especially on movies.

Didn’t realize you were in such a big room. What are the dimensions?

My family room is 18 x 18 and 9 ft in height and the M2 + EP 500 fills it nicely.
The room is divided into two areas with a TV area is on the right and a ping pong table on the left. The left wall is almost completely glass. I was expecting all kinds of acoustic problems but it sounds great.

25x50x9. Envious.

Well in that case M2s might be a little thin. That room is the bigger then the foot print of most houses.

Do you want to fill the whole thing or just a part of it?

Canes has 100s in the big room. He is A-ok.

Minorc has 80s in the smaller room and is wondering about an upgrade. He was first wondering about seperates/receiver upgrade. His room is in the pics further back.

Confusing thread...

Minorc has a center channel laying on the floor in a picture.. Not sure what he’s upto but should be interesting to see where he ends up.

Ya, I was getting the feeling we were talking about two different rooms after I went back and looked at the pictures posted by Minorc.

Trevor, what’s wrong with transitioning from towers to bookshelves + sub if the room size will support It?
I’d almost always recommend that combo for anyone who didn’t want to have a separate amp for at least the front 3. Each component is being used to its fullest this way.

Nothing wrong with it. In fact you are 100% right.

Just he already has nice towers + Dirac. He could make his towers sound like anything he wants now. Full control over the response.

The bookshelves + sub route is excellent. I just wouldnt want to have bookshelves as mains if the room allowed towers. Something special about full range channels in surround.

Dirac allowed me to do this with all 11channels and 2 subs playing simultaneouly. Sounds pretty real and the extra air over 8Khz makes you feel like your in “their” room. ( My room is full treated so I can get away with it -not recommended in hard rooms.)

Sure bass falls off around 30hz, but I just dont wanna upgrade my subs quite yet.... too many other things fighting with my bank account. Lol.

Think the idea is to off load as much of the low end as possible to the sub. That allows the receiver to use it’s power budget for the mids and highs. I.e set the receiver small speaker crossover point as high as you dare. The low end of towers in this case goes to waste (and may even work against you).

Of course with a receiver or amp that doesn’t top out ... full range towers can be awesome.

Hey Gents,

Apologies.

My centre channel is now on stands, off the floor, has been since March.
I want to keep a full range tower as my mains, not only for visuals but for vinyl listening which I'm also now into. Haven't figured out if I can add a sub for 2 channel vinyl listening yet, nor have I figured I needed one.

Guess I'm hunting for the next "wow factor" item.

Unless you are rocking a super duper cartridge and arm, your system is unlikely to produce anything below 30Hz. M80s will get you close and M100s will definitely reproduce even lower.

Do you really need the center? Maybe you can answer that by experimenting with a v4 front when you receive it.

Running a Yamaha P220(nothing fancy) with a Rega mini A2D
Bass sounds as it should, maybe a tad light.

I ran HT duties without a Center Channel for about a year, I doubt the V4 M80 would make me want to go back to that... don't know until you try I guess. The VP180 is a great speaker, possibly overkill though.

I agree the 180 is a great center channel, matches up perfectly (as it should) with the 80s.
What I hear I like. Although, my Theater isn’t very wide so most certainly I’m losing out compared to everyone with wider spaces. My mains and center are only v3 but I would rather have a center channel than not.
YMMV

Jeff

For Wow factor:

Option 1. Theater centric. My vote.
-Blackout blinds behind your slat wood blinds.

-Falsewall extended down from beam bulkhead to floor. Fabric stretched on it with acoustically transparent screen.

-Acoustic panels behind screen.

-Shrink screen to proper size.

Option 2. Music centric

-move sub to center of front wall.

-large QRD diffuser on front wall.

-acoustic panels on sidewalls near speakers

-retract screen when not in use

For both setups -learn to use Dirac. Focus on the room and integration. Lots of wow factor left on the table you have available.

I would not recommend buying or upgrading anything until you sort your room out. You already have great speakers and power on hand.

So we finished taking all of the walls down. We are back to concrete foundation and studs. We decided to gut the room and start anew getting all of the wires and insulation in behind the walls and ceilings. The speakers still sound good even with no walls up. Hopefully by spring time we will have it put back together and I am also running zone 2 speakers out to our patio to add exterior speakers for the hot tub and eventually the pool area. Has anyone heard Axiom's outdoor speakers? I was thinking of putting 4 speakers across the patio area.

Canes, you may as well do your room right the second time. Make the room anti-standing wave by building non-parallel surfaces. That means a tilted ceiling, and trapezoidal walls. 14 foot thick insulation on the rear wall with no drywall will do wonders for bass. As for wiring, you want to come up with a system that allows for future flexibility. You may want to do 16-channel down the road.

Commission Ian to build you on-wall and on-ceiling active LFRs for all channels.

An equipment room would be ideal because you damned well know you'll be running ADA-1500 amps for every channel in the future.

Make us proud, man. Trevor will guide you.

Edit: I heard the Algonquins and they are very good for outside. Maybe the v4 are even better if they have a "real" cross-over like the M3v4. It would be awesome to have an 800 out there too. Ian can build you a weather-resistant 800 with a splash shield over the amp plate and resin epoxy over the cabinet. A one-of-a-kind! Make sure Ian signs that one.

I need outdoor speakers to play loud enough that people on the blue ridge parkway will be able to hear, 1 mile away across a valley. I tried to talk to my wife about building the room with a tilted ceiling but she wouldn't go for it. I told her it would be more like a movie theater. She said maybe if we ever enclose the theater room. Going to build false walls with multi layers of insulation and dual layers of drywall with green goo on the false wall. It's going to be a project since we will be doing the work ourselves. I want to block off one of the offsets and make it a mechanical room if she doesn't want to block off that area i'll have everything on racks and tucked away.

And yes I will be adding ADA-1500s at some point too.

I don't know how much ceiling or wall tilt you need but likely not enough to be noticeable.

Yeah, I want to hear your outdoor speakers all the way up here! So you need weatherized active LFR1500s then.

It's great your lady will be involved in this and doing labor to boot.

She will be making sure the room looks nice and neat. Her only complaint is that the 100s sit too far out from the wall. I told her once the walls are up the room will tell us how far away from the wall they need to be. She just looked at me like I was crazy.

Canes, you have become the room whisperer. To appear more mysterious, look at her out the corner of your eye while stroking your chin.

Canes,
Of course you'll need more power.
You can never have too much power!

Jeff