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Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435047 01/05/20 06:08 AM
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The dual mids don't know if they should squawk or woof. It's sort of a similar limitation with the M3 and M50 but it seems more natural for a woofer to try to squawk than a mid to try to woof. I find the M3s and M50s are soothing while the M22s are irritating even with a sub. I'm hoping the M2s are better.


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Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435049 01/05/20 12:55 PM
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Interesting thoughts, and fuel for more system twiddling.

Mojo, I'm not sure I follow, "If you can, even temporarily, move the M22s into the room and see how soundstage width and depth may differ between the versions." Do you mean compare the V2 vs V4 M22s for depth and soundstage? And if so, what sound mode would you recommend, stereo?

"It could be the M22v4 is more linear, and hence introduces less harmonic distortion, which you interpret as less involving."
That could very well be what's happening. I always liked the M22s "linearality"; maybe I just went past my limit on that particular good thing.

"I went from a 3-way Technics system (Japanese speakers) to M22s and i returned the M22s. I found them anemic and without detail."
Ouch. I feel like I'm getting one or the other (depending on version), just not both at the same time. But damn chesseroo, that was brutal!

"We bought the M60s (not a bookshelf size of course) and its detail and low end filled everything we were looking for."
I'm jealous. Unfortunately, I like to listen to music in my study and it's only 13x14, so towers are out of the question. One day though I'd love to get M60s, or ideally M80s, in my family room.

Re: No more M22s?
Cork #435051 01/05/20 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted By Cork
Mojo, I'm not sure I follow, "If you can, even temporarily, move the M22s into the room and see how soundstage width and depth may differ between the versions." Do you mean compare the V2 vs V4 M22s for depth and soundstage? And if so, what sound mode would you recommend, stereo?


That's what I meant. Yes, stereo.

Try them with their backs 3 feet away from the front wall, 10 feet apart and sit 10 feet away. In other words, make an equilateral triangle with 10 foot sides. Experiment with sliding your MLP forward and back from that 10 foot reference.

Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435462 01/25/20 08:05 PM
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I bought an A/B switch and I finally had a chance to set the V2 and V4 up side by side.
It wasn't an ideal test, the V2 location was jury rigged (sitting on top of the shipping boxes), and the V2 must have a higher SPL because they were 3 -6 db louder,.
But it didn't have to be ideal conditions because the differences were not subtle.
The sound stage, which Mojo asked about, was leaps and bounds better on the v4. And by better, I mean more precise location and better able to pick out instruments. On the other hand, the v2 gave more of a concert hall sound if that's your thing.
The high end was, as expected, also much, much better. I knew this already, but comparing A/B made it even more noticeable. Cymbals and cymbal brushes were noticeable on some tracks where they had been muffled or even buried before.
Of course, I still had my problem where I thought the v4 lost something. I even drug in my wife, who in a semi-blind comparison, also liked the v2's better.
I did some more playing around and I think I narrowed it down to mid-range performance. I think the v2 is much more pronounced in the mids.
To test this theory I set up a manual equalization exaggerating of the mid at +3.5 at 1k, and then outward from there at +3.0, and +2.0. (This is with a Yamaha RX-681.) Then I switched between the 681's 'natural' setting and my manual setting on both the v2 and v4's. On the v2 the difference was relative slight. On the v4, using my crude mid enhancement dramatically made the V4 sound more like the v2.
So I'm going to leave the v4's up and play around with a more precise mid boost.

Bottom line though, the M5's are the way to go for any future purchase. I'd be inclined to return the M22s if (1) I didn't need a hobby, (2) my location wasn't perfect for the M22's and (3) I didn't go out of my way to virtually hold my breath and say I wanted the M22's.

Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435464 01/25/20 09:14 PM
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Cork, have you read my comments on the M2?

When I heard the M22ti, I thought it was crap. The M2v4 is like an M5 except it has better bass response in smaller rooms.

Last edited by Mojo; 01/25/20 09:40 PM.

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Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435481 01/26/20 05:36 PM
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Cork, when you say the v2 gave more of a concert hall sound vs. the v4 presenting more precise imaging, that is what I call improved spatial resolution. This is due to greater linearity in the family of frequency response curves from multiple improvements Axiom has made particularly in the last 7 years. This spatial resolution arises naturally when you produce a very linear speaker and then place two of them in a room and feed them stereo. Positioning within the room is quite important to get as much out of them as the design allows.

There also appears to be a movement in the speaker industry as of maybe 7 years ago that Axiom has embraced. This is the practice of defining the soundstage as being resolved behind rather than in front of the speakers. With well-recorded material, I hear the front of the soundstage behind the rear plane of v4. From there, it extends backwards. This is not the case with v2. V2 is forward. This is actually something Craig pointed out to me before I bought v4 and it was one of the features that made me upgrade my M80v2 to M5. The M5s were better in all respects.

A good question is how exactly does Axiom achieve this effect. One of the variables in the equation must be the midrange. They likely manipulate the family of curves to shape the midrange response and push the soundstage back without affecting fidelity. This is perhaps why you are hearing more mids with the v2.

Are you hearing a difference in depth of soundstage between the v2 and v4?


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Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435487 01/26/20 07:54 PM
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How do the phase vs frequency plots of the speakers compare?

To really figure this out measure phase differential or transfer function between 2 speakers over the same frequency range.

Make sure the mic doesnt move and the mono speaker is in the same position for each test.

Axiom has this info Im sure. smile

A speakers relative phase to a boundary vs frequency or another speaker can throw its perceived location. This is used routinely in mixes to create spacial effects between channels. Doing this intentionally with placement or messing with phase (distance) processing can also create this effect.

Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #435489 01/26/20 08:18 PM
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I don't know the answer to those questions and have never asked Axiom for comparative plots. I don't have the equipment for these measurements. Even if I had the plots, I'm not sure I'd know how to interpret the effects they have on ears-brain. I'd sure like to learn though.

I've always wondered how height is encoded in stereo. Do you know?


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Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #436105 03/28/20 06:31 PM
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I'm back, and I'll try to be terse because I know I've gone on a bit in this thread.

First off, I'm a hypocrite. Even though I complained about the M22s going away, and later said I wouldn't return them because I ordered them knowing they were discontinued ... I wound up not being able to tune them to my liking. So I upgraded to M5s.
Axiom was great as always, giving me full credit even though I was over by a few days.

My final word on the M22s is I think the v2 was more enjoyable than the v4. I can't say better, but I definitely preferred listening to the old version more.

But the M5v4s take the prize across the board. I won't list the categories, but the M5's win in all of them. When I was talking to Debbie@Axiom at one point during the upgrade she mentioned she considers the M5's towers disguised a bookshelves, and I completely agree; they are powerful full-range freakishly awesome speakers!

So anyway, my missing harmonic during Rachmaniov's 2nd is back - and I'm a happy camper!

And on a completely unrelated topic, as part of my birthday present my wife said she's okay with putting towers in the living room. So now I have to decide between M60s and M80s. Such a decision, this will take months!

Re: No more M22s?
Mojo #436106 03/28/20 06:46 PM
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With a sub, I hear no difference between M5 bookshelves and M2s. I'd even say the M2 soundstage and imaging is slightly better.

I'd be very interested to hear what you think of M5s compared to M60s or M80s. I can tell you that I take M5s over M100s. Yes the M100s can go louder and sound more like instruments and voices but, in my spaces, the M5s image and soundstage much better than the M100s. They completely audibly disappear and so do the M2, M3 and M50.

Relative to your ears, what is the height of your M5 tweeters? Did you place the M5s "into" the room?

Last edited by Mojo; 03/28/20 06:47 PM.

House of the Rising Sone
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Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
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