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#435577 - 01/31/20 05:44 PM Comparing one active speaker to another?
MatManhasgone Online   confused
connoisseur

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 1095
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
Flash back to 2014 and Bryston has their fully active model T that coincidentally were a co-operation venture between Bryston and our own Axiom team.

We have the added advantage of an omni-directional speaker. I know there was for a while a user here on the forum who has a pair of the Bryston spekers. I don't know if they were the active ones. But I am curious, how does the Active LFR stand up against the Brystons? Who else has active external crossovers?
_________________________
Anthem: AVM60
Axiom: ADA1000, LFR1100, VP180, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp
AudioSource: Amp One/A

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#435578 - 01/31/20 06:59 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: MatManhasgone]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 7047
Slim has the passive Model T and he tells me every day how much he loves it along with the 800 and dual 500v4 - all three of those subs equipped with the gin fizz/disco fever switch. He uses them in 2.1, along with two Anthem M1s with dedicated 5000W service, to fill his house which can easily double as a dance club.

While Bryston has a digital Model T, its sound power and listening window curves are not equal. And neither does the response attenuate at 3dB/decade. The Bryston is also less sensitive and is rated at less than half the average power. The responses are also not as linear mid-band. I am drawing these comparisons from the Bryston active brochure and the Axiom and Bryston websites.

I have not heard any Brystons so I unfortunately cannot satisfy you with any of my poetry.

There are other companies out there building digital speakers but none that I know of that are omni-directional or are focusing on the spinorama as Axiom has. I think most manufacturers continue to believe this is a niche and too risky a market to invest R&D into.
_________________________
A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
had v2;v4 FOC rock
Nx maybe

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#435580 - 01/31/20 09:06 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: MatManhasgone]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 7047
Also note the digital model T reaches 9Hz lower. The bass however, like the rest of the response, is not as linear as the digital LFR's.

It's a fact, not opinion, that the dual 500v4 fed off my DSPs add absolutely nothing to the immaculate bass I experience in my 1900 cu.ft. living room. This is bass that no Axiom passive, or Axiom passive/digital hybrid, has any hope of achieving without the aid of a sub. In again what is fact and not opinion, the digital LFRs in my living room outperform my M100/800/dual 500v4 in my 4,200 cu.ft. basement in absolutely every possible way.

Note I have no EQ in my living room and none is required with the digital LFRs whereas every other speaker except the Bose 601 needed massive bass attenuation. The Bose 601 of course has no bass.


Edited by Mojo (01/31/20 09:18 PM)
_________________________
A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
had v2;v4 FOC rock
Nx maybe

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#435591 - 02/01/20 12:33 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: Mojo]
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1990
Originally Posted By Mojo
Also note the digital model T reaches 9Hz lower. The bass however, like the rest of the response, is not as linear as the digital LFR's.

It's a fact, not opinion, that the dual 500v4 fed off my DSPs add absolutely nothing to the immaculate bass I experience in my 1900 cu.ft. living room. This is bass that no Axiom passive, or Axiom passive/digital hybrid, has any hope of achieving without the aid of a sub. In again what is fact and not opinion, the digital LFRs in my living room outperform my M100/800/dual 500v4 in my 4,200 cu.ft. basement in absolutely every possible way.

Note I have no EQ in my living room and none is required with the digital LFRs whereas every other speaker except the Bose 601 needed massive bass attenuation. The Bose 601 of course has no bass.


Mojo - the LFR-1100 actives need no bass attenuation, but every other Axiom speaker does need bass attenuation, is this correct?

What other Axiom speakers require attenuation in this room?
_________________________
LFR1100 actv, LFR1100, M100, M50, VP180HP, VP150, 3xEP800, M3, EP350, ADA1000-5, ADA1500-4 + 1500-6

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#435592 - 02/01/20 01:55 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: MatManhasgone]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 7047
Correct, Craig. M2 requires the least attenuation and for high(er) SPLs only. M3, M50, M5, M100, M80v2 all require a lot more with the M50 needing less than all the others in this list. The digital LFRs require none. They are perfect at all SPLs!
_________________________
A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
had v2;v4 FOC rock
Nx maybe

Top
#435596 - 02/01/20 05:43 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: Mojo]
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1990
That is a head scratcher. In a comparable room position, physics tells us that the more extended bass response speaker will need more bass attenuation, unless the speaker with less extension has a large bump at a certain frequency range in the bass.

For example, an M100 is within a 4 dB window from 40 to 200 Hz. It then rolls off fairly quickly below 40 Hz.

The Active 1100 is in a 3 dB 2 window from 40 to 200 Hz.

Yet, in your room, the M100 needs bass attenuation while the Active doesn't.
_________________________
LFR1100 actv, LFR1100, M100, M50, VP180HP, VP150, 3xEP800, M3, EP350, ADA1000-5, ADA1500-4 + 1500-6

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#435598 - 02/01/20 06:46 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: MatManhasgone]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 7047
You are presuming the curves for all the passives use the same engineering procedures as the actives. I think the derivation of the Family of Curves (FOC) at Axiom has evolved. For example, I'll posit one way that the derivation has changed since the v4 passives were engineered: the weighting factors used to derive the listening window and sound power for the actives are different than the passives. Measurement procedures and equipment may also have changed. I'll also speculate these new learnings will make it into version 5 and we will see different curves.


Edited by Mojo (02/01/20 07:19 PM)
_________________________
A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
had v2;v4 FOC rock
Nx maybe

Top
#435599 - 02/01/20 07:49 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: Mojo]
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1990
Mojo - got it. Glad you like your speakers.
_________________________
LFR1100 actv, LFR1100, M100, M50, VP180HP, VP150, 3xEP800, M3, EP350, ADA1000-5, ADA1500-4 + 1500-6

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#435600 - 02/01/20 09:07 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: MatManhasgone]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2013
Loc: Canada
Mojo are you using the same speaker location for your comparisons?
Two thoughts...
If you are you shouldn't (IMO) and if you aren't that would make one hell of a picture. Each series intermingled side by side (when looking towards them from the back of the room) some further forward than others maybe...but still. Would be a cool picture.
In theory there should be a sweet spot and mlp for each pair. Just trying to wrap my head around your last statement. Sorry, lol.


Edited by brwsaw (02/01/20 09:07 PM)

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#435601 - 02/01/20 09:27 PM Re: Comparing one active speaker to another? [Re: MatManhasgone]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 7047
Blair, I am not using the same speaker locations for the comparisons. I always position the speakers and MLP for the greatest possible soundstage width and image separation while maintaining soundstage depth. I also try to move them away from the front wall as much as practical.

I have posted many photos of all the speakers within my living room and basement. I do not listen to them that way though. I just took those photos for laughs.

I am not sure what you mean by you are trying to wrap your head around my last statement. I don't know what statement you are referring to.
_________________________
A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
had v2;v4 FOC rock
Nx maybe

Top
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