Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Denon AVR-3313 - Sound not as good as I expected

Hi,
I have an AVR Denon 3313 since a few years.
Over time, I started adding Axiom speakers around it.
So far, I have:
Main = M80 v4
Center = Vp150
Rear = QS8 v4
Even though it's good, I don't fell it is that good. When I'm reading comments from many of you, I can't say I have those goose bumps when listening to music or movie.
Even in plain stereo mode with onlya main speakers ON, I feel I'm missing some low end. And if I crank it up, it's even worst. Like all high frequencies are very at high level and no low frequencies. Like it's not a warm sound.

I'm sure I can bring this setup to a better point, but where do I start ?

A power amp ? My Denon have pre-amp outputs.

Thanks for your thoughts about my setup !

You should not have to crank it up. Even with M3v4, M50v4, M5s or bookshelf M2v4s with no sub in my 4200 cu.ft. space, I get satisfying warmth compared to my old M80v2.

Easy stuff out of the way first. If you have dual binding posts, are the shorting bars installed? Are the M80s configured in the Denon setup to play full range? Are they set to 6 Ohms (not 4 Ohms)?

Your room and how the M80s are laid out relative to it and your listening position, have a lot to do with the soundstage, imaging and bass performance. So does the relative deadness of your room.

How big is your room and where are the M80s located relative to you and the room boundaries (front and side walls)?

What do you hear different when Audyssey is engaged?

Have you tried tweaking the EQ?

Do you have a sub?
Most of those speakers are not made for Bass. The M80 can do a decent 40 or 50 Hz but not subwoofer frequencies. With most movie content there's a lot of low end in the center now a days. A VP160 would do a whole lot more than the 150.

If it's low end you seek with M80 you need at least the EP500. With my M80s I was using a smaller SVS sub. that they totally drowned out. I have been using a EP500 for the last couple years to which I highly recommend.

Another vote for looking at room & placement.

When I first set up my M60's in the living room there was almost no bass... walking around the house I found that there was powerful bass in the loft and at the entrance to my bedroom.

Turned out that the room shape (cathedral ceiling with speakers aimed across the peak) required that I rotate everything 90 degrees, so the speakers aimed along the peak rather than across it. It's not actually where they are aiming that matters for bass, of course, but rather the relationship between speaker and listening position.

Your description of the sound when cranking up suggests a few possibilities:

1 - speaker placement per above - if bass is weak from placement everything else will sound louder

2 - make sure the speakers are not out of phase... that would give both weak bass and generally unsatisfying sound

3 - Mojo's suggestions re: dual binding posts etc..., that bit me as well

4 - after all of the above, the room may be more live / reflective than ideal... experiment with something absorbent behind you and/or on the floor between you & speakers and/or side wall at the first reflection points between you & speakers

I found that having a reflective wall behind me really hurt the perceived sound quality, and that even holding a pillow up behind my head made a significant difference. That is not a practical solution obviously but just trying to demonstrate that there are easy things you can try to get a handle on what is happening without having to re-arrange the room 30 times.

I did end up having to re-arrange a few times though...

Good thoughts Bridge and Mojo. Forgot that it may help to also do what is known as the Subwoofer crawl with yuor M80s. If you can place an M80 in or as close to your listening spot as possible. Then crawl around while playing something with more continuous bass notes when you find where you have even and distinguishable bass notes. Put speakers there.

A good track to use is Jennifer Warnes Ballad of the Runaway Horse.
There's a placement technique called "Master Set" Where in you can set your mains to your rooms modes\nulls etc. All versions of such placement recommend This song specifically for setup.

The Master set placement involves moving your speakers mere millimeters and a couple hours of time. To which is a whole lot easier if your speakers are already in a decent place out of nulls etc.

P.S. it sounds like a lot of stuff but once you get into it. It can become quite entertaining, with huge sound stage differences within a couple of centimeters.

Unfortunately Master Set places my actives within the gas fireplace.

that will definitely add some extra warmth ...

Agree with Bridgman, sounds like your speakers are out of phase. Use a AA battery, disconnect speaker wires from amp/receiver, one speaker at a time hold positive (red terminal) wire to the positive pole of the battery, and the black terminal wire to the negative pole, and observe drivers. If they move out when energized, you're in phase, if in, you are out of phase. Sometimes, the internal wiring of a speaker may be reversed, so trust the battery test over the color of the terminal.

The M80s have jumpers. You should check to see if you have connected the jumpers. If not, then you are only driving half of your M80s.

All drivers working in phase should give very pleasant sound quality with decent bass response.

Good luck.

Depending on how you define a fractional M80, he could be driving 2/3 of the drivers or 2/5 of the rated power.

Good one on the phase. I forgot about that one although Audyssey should catch it.

Yup, about 1/3 of an M80 if by the area of drivers driven assuming that without jumpers you'd be driving only 2 tweeters and 2 x 5.25" drivers.