Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Active LFR1100s vs Full Immersive system

Has anyone compared them?

Or like apples and oranges. Curious.

Prices similar for a decent setup.

Do you mean full immersive like Atmos or perhaps 5.1 or 7.1?

Which speakers are you looking at putting in the "full immersive system," and could you give us details on the room it's going in?

Generally speaking, if I was wanting it primarily for movies/TV and video games and had a room where it wasn't difficult to place all of the surround channels, I'd go for full surround, maybe bookshelf speakers all around if it helped me get two subwoofers (EP600s or EP800s if possible). For a system where music is the priority, I would go for the Actives.

But this isn't based on real-world experience in which I've directly compared both of them. Hopefully Axiom themselves can tell you they've compared them in their listening room.

A system with:

3x LCR M100s
4x M5s
4x M3 in ceiling
2x EP500s
1x ADA 1000 6 channel
1x ADA 1500 5 channel

20k before tax

A system with:

2x LFR 1100 actives
2x ADA 1500s

19.5k before tax

I Guess the question comes down to is the dolby surround or Auro upmixer a better presentation with real channels than Omnis for music in a comparable system?

I know they are for a different customer, thats why I said might be apples to oranges comparison.

I've never heard a system like the one you've described. I can tell you the two side QS10s add a lot to music in PLII and Neo at lower volumes. If I turn the system up to reference, the sides are not required and stereo gives me almost 180 degree coverage. Perhaps in a different room, the actives wouldn't need help from surrounds even at lower volumes.

For movies, the actives alone can't cut it no matter the volume. Surrounds have their own content which the actives alone can't replicate.

There is a clarity and immediacy to the actives that no passive I've heard can match. With passives, there wasn't much difference between an M3 and an M100 for movie watching. The actives blew that paradigm out of the water.

Just talking 2 channel.

No one would suggest a surround mix is best on 2 channels. But 2 channels on immersive surround vs omnis for same price?

Craig, you have ATMOS? I know you have Actives and a theater room.... whatcha think for 2 ch?

Omnis or immersive upmix?

https://youtu.be/MIKSQT-oXfc

I just had this pumped to +5. I had the front half of a hemispherical sound field. Clean, clean, clean. Can't take too much of it. Reference level is good for this tune. It gives me a 140 degree field at that setting. This is Firestick 4K into my Onk and into my 1500-2 for woofers and 1000-8 for all else.

I couldnt takemuch of that either. lol

Wheres Craig? Stop selling cars for a sec.

Trevor - reading through the thread - this seems the revealing question:

"I Guess the question comes down to is the dolby surround or Auro upmixer a better presentation with real channels than Omnis for music in a comparable system?"

The actives are the most amazing music makers, and they are also wickedly efficient. I would be tempted to go actives with ADA-1000-5's and a pair of EP500's. You are in super speaker territory, and with amazing music ability.

Do you guys think part of that sense of efficient and dynamic presentation is owing to the deletion of the passive crossovers?

Wondering as I ponder an evolution of my passive towers....

No question. But I also know Ian ironed out non-linearities using the digital fabric that were impossible to iron out using the analog fabric. I am sure some of those were cabinet-related which is something you won't be able to do unless you take lots of measurements. The most you can do is implement the analog cross-over in the digital domain.

Trevor ... part of the issue is the elimination of the passive crossovers, yes. A passive crossover can only attenuate the signal in order to achieve a relatively flat response curve (think family of curves - I urge you to look at the curves for the passive front firing speakers, then the passive LFR series, then the active LFR-1100 - you will see a lot of improvement with each evolution of speaker). The passive crossover - from ANY speaker - will "bleed off" power while performing its function.

The LFR-1100 active has these benefits:

1. The DSP handles all crossover duties - no bleed off in terms of power. The following statement is an "educated guess" on my part - but I am fairly certain a pair of Active LFR-1100's with dual ADA-1000-5 amps will outperform a pair of passive LFR-1100's with an ADA-1500-2 for each speaker. And the price difference is under $1000.

2. The DSP optimizes the response curve for each driver set - the three 6.5 inch woofers are set 1, the front 5.25 inch drivers are set 2, the rear 5.25 inch drivers are set three, the front firing tweeters are set 4 and the rear firing tweeters are set 5. Ian/Andrew and team can measure each set of drivers separately, then as a unit, and after 100's of hours of testing, have a unit with an amazingly flat curve both on axis and the sound power curve.

3. Limit the bandwidth to each set of drivers. A heavy bass drum that drives the amp to near its limits won't have any effect on the midranges and tweeters.

There are other benefits - but these are the "macro" issues that are settled with the active speaker set up.

Sounds like active is the answer.

Eyeing DSP units now.....

Trevor - The actives come with the DSP ... which looks a lot like a pre-amp. Did you think you needed a DSP? Or are you looking at preamps?

No, just trying to learn as much from you guys that went from a passive to active setup and get your subjective impressions. I’m not in the market for Active LFRs (way out of budget).

I have a major house improvement coming up that will sap my funds for the next bit (to the tune of an LFR setup.... lol). Full house HVAC.

But, I am interested in the prospect of converting my DIY 3way towers to active at some point. Usually I research for a year or so before I actually do or build audio stuff. Right now it is looking like a hypex arrangement with a dsp front end for active filtering.

I am way past starting over with an Axiom setup. Too much time/funds invested in the towers I built. I am, for better or worse, a perpetual DIYer. Learn so much that way. Super fun.

Trevor, are you thinking of running a spinorama?

Trevor,
I guess if your building your own actives you know about options like miniDSP ... which would be the easiest way to get an active x-over for a conventional speaker.

If your thinking of building an omni direction one your are getting into DSP programming and duplicating Axioms work ... an interesting project if you have the desire and time.

I recently unpacked Floyd Toole’s book “Sound Reproduction loudspeakers and rooms”. Started reading it again (realized that when I read it the first time I skimmed large sections ... but think it’s probably worth reading fully) ... it’s a great starting point if you haven’t read it yet and have an interest.

He's read that book and a few others.

Tex, I might do the spinorama. I would have to drag one outside from the basement for a couple afternoons. (175lbs)

Yes, I’m aware of minidsp and have a 2x4 here somewhere. I’m a fan of them for what they are, but they are kind of a gateway product moreso than end game in my opinion. I had noise floor issues with mine and lost 7db of headroom with the 2x4.... No doubt the new generation products are better, but I’m eyeing an all in one solution from hypex. They have plate amps now for three way actives with 500w/500w100w that are perfect for mine. DSP onboard already for the purpose. $750/ch. Much more confidence in hypex. Pretty much state of the art right now at fair pricing. I can remote locate them in my rack for easy PC tuning.

Yes, I’ve read a book or two. Saw a new edition is out of Floyd Tooles book. Of the ones I’ve read I wouldn’t rank his first place, but still really good. He repeats himself a bunch, but in fairness, he warns you in the prologue. A really good one is this I thought.

https://www.amazon.ca/Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-David-Howard/dp/0240521757

Been a while since I cracked a cover on them. Think I’m up to 6 or so. Gave up on Leo Beranek for now. Lol. Not enough midi-chlorians in me yet.

The bottleneck in my setup is amplification. See: funds. Going active kills many birds with a single stone.

Trevor,
Looks like you're way ahead of me here. I've never used either miniDSP or hypex. I haven't researched the miniDSP. It just looked like an easy, ready made, solution for an active crossover ... nice to know about the noise floor issues.

Since Toole's book is the one on my side table I might as well finish it ... I'll have a look at David Howard's book ... although I think I'm already getting too deep as this is really a side topic for me ...

Cold fusion your main topic?

Tooles book is really good. Most books have a lot ofoverlap on the fundamentals anyway.

The book I linked had one standout eureka point: If you reduce the rt60 or decay time in your room lower than the recording’s global decay, yourbrain is foooled that the recording’s acoustic space is your own.

Exceptional hint for movie playback realism.

Perspicacious!

interesting, but intuitively seems like a incomplete statement taken on it’s own.

Mainly say that because a completely dead room would qualify... and I’m fairly sure that It wouldn’t be the best sounding room for 2 channel playback.

Anyway, I’ve read stuff on rt60 before ... and I think I’m at the point that I need hands on experience to drive these points home. Once I get back on the theater project I’ll start experimenting a bit (probably use REW).

Yep. Theory is great... in theory.

I can attest to the validity of that one.

I recommend AudioTools by Studio Six Digital if you are an ipad user. Very very useful plugins available. Costs $ but well worth it. Internal mic used and calibrated for. The difference between internal and external mic/preamp is negligible for home use. The app is well supported and pro grade.

I tried REW but compared to an app based solution it is less mobile and flexible.

hmmmm, I wonder if that app will work well with this

https://kjdelectronics.com/products...ablet-and-android?variant=31350692511862

No.

https://studiosixdigital.com/audio-hardware/generic-audio-hardware/headset-connected-microphon/

I would be using the LARSA plugin for speaker response tuning and the Transfer Function plugin for phase alignment between drivers. Pretty powerful suite of tools including Smaart. Industry tool standard.

Everything is on sale right now because of covid if you want the app and plugins. No affiliation.

Trevor, I bought AudioTools ...
Not the slickest app I've used but it's definitely more of a tool then I expected.
From what I've seen so far I can safely say I'm not regretting the purchase.

Thanks for recommending it.