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excellent article chess..

thank gosh he didnt mention anything about 'break-in'. that article has made me feel very good about my HT choices.

thanks for sharing!!

bigjohn

Yeah chess, good article. Larry has the same problem as those of us here who have an academic background in the sciences. We're unable to ignore the well-established scientific and engineering principles of audio design and instead follow the mindless mantra of "just trust your ears" that the charlatans in the business promote.

Here's a link to a review of my favorite speaker wire/interconnect manufacturer.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/archives/

I have the modestly priced Clearview speaker cables and they are a part of my favorite system.

As to all solid state amps sounding the same, anyone who has heard the difference between amps knows this statement is simply nonsense. Folks can talk about the placebo effect all they want, but that theory does not and cannot account for those instances in which the listener doesn't like what he/she hears.

Yes, the poster here has found an article which agrees with his theories about sound equipment. That's very nice. So what? There are many reviews of amps and even cables which represent the phenomenological school of thought which may be summed up: don't try to convince me with your theories, trust your ears!
________________________

I'm laughing.

Sorry dude, but science is not just a bunch of ideas you don't like that you can just toss away.

Also, you've proved the guy's point. Um, magazine? With advertisers?

I would point out this. Check out #51.

Trust your nose.

If you think 'science' requires that all solid state amps sound the same, then your 'science,' or your understanding of your science is simply inadequate. Personally, I think folks who claim to understand all the 'science' behind sound reproduction oversimplify the problems and overstate their command of the subject.

Yessir.

I'll study more.

I admit I didn't do well in Physics 7B. Care to educate me by posting some scientific articals specifically citing differences in human detectible sound from solid state amps?

That's just the point kc, theory has to be adequate to explain observable phenomena. Forget about your theories, they're limited, or maybe you're not a great scientist - just trust your ears.

Speaking simply for myself, I can't trust my ears. They are distorted by my brain's preconceived notions and therefore cannot be believed. (see the placebo effect) Therefore, I trust my common sense and limited understanding of scientific principles.

In reply to:

---

Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

---

Dear, dear... a poke in the eye? Or does that extend to the boutique wire purchasers and tubeheads?

Bren R.

What??? 2x6 is taking offense to something scientific written about audio?

Is this bizarro world I've stepped into?

Yep. I bet he also believes we aren't descended from apes, either.

Man....I'm sitting here eating my breakfast when I come across this thread. First of all, great article....makes me feel much better about my audio choices. Then, 2X6 comes in and stirs the pot, which draws the expected responses. But, PM picks up a large chunk of meat and proceeds to throw it into the shark tank.....now we just sit back and wait.

turbodog-

what did you have for breakfast?? i felt productive this morning, so i made three strips of bacon, two sunny side up eggs, two pieces of buttered toast, and an avocado sprinkled with some salt, cayenne pepper, and some lemon juice. oh, and a glass of OJ.. it was delicious.

i have a tendency to trust more in the scientific data, simply because, by our human nature, we tend to allow our 'personal' views and opinions to effect the thought/decision process. science is more straight forward and specific, dealing with numbers and measured outputs. but, i also feel, whether its the placebo effect or not, that if a person 'likes' or 'believes' that what they are hearing is better than something else, then buy it, and go with it.

the simple truth here is that these are two COMPLETELY different process, to get the same result.. a piece of audio equipment that YOU like and prefer. once again, being very neutral, i can see both sides of the coin.

i think i will just sit and wait also!!

bigjohn

I'm not saying that science is not adequate to test and evaluate the propositions at issue. So it is not a matter that science is weak, but rather your science is weak. "Your white crane kung fu weak!"

Why? Because the tests are with single frequencies. Music is complex, except for Philip Glass.

Placebo effect? How many posters here cooed that the 'scientific' musings set out in Chess's subject essay made them "feel good" about their audio choices?

How many of you BELIEVE (a belief you believe is scientific because after all you know we're descended from apes) that all solid state amps of the same output and THD rating perform indistinguishably when it comes to reproducing symphonic music? Why would you believe such a thing that you have not tested yourself? Oh, you don't trust yourself, you think the placebo effect makes anything less than an impossibly rigorous double blind in a dead anechoic chamber useless. Then go listen to an amp which costs $10,000 which you don't like but thought you would.

I've never listened to true "audiophile" equipment costing tens of thousands of dollars, but despite the "scientific" or logical arguments that there is no or little sound difference between high end and midrange equipment, I'd be perfectly happy even if there were. Within the context of the long history of human existence, most of us (at least in the west) live like kings (certainly true of anyone who owns a set of Axioms! )

Very little, if anything, of what I own (cars, clothes, furniture, A/V equipment, sporting goods) is real "high end" stuff like one would see on Life Styles of the Rich and Famous. To me a debate over the extent to which any of it is just as good as stuff costing 10 times more is silly. Who cares? Most of the stuff I own, and particularly my new HT system, is damn nice, and I'm very grateful to be able to enjoy it. I'm not going to let my enjoyment get dragged down by envy of better stuff, nor by getting defensive about whether more expensive stuff is really better.

Those who are not in the top 1% income bracket should know that they can get a terrific sounding system for a very reasonable price, that Axioms and a lot of the other equipment mentioned here provide good value, and that they can be very happy with what they purchase as long as they don't get caught up in worrying that someone somewhere has stuff that may sound better.

I do think you're both right:
--> The audio world is *far* from 'you get what you pay for'. Assuming that there are very subtle audio things produced or allowed by expensive components is not something we want to make into a habit (and have it taint all of our listening tests), if we can get the same sound from less expensive equipment. Spreading myths such as this (especially if there's evidence to the contrary) is something that does the opposite of help people.

However,
-->I liked how 2x said that isn't not that science is weak, it's that the rather simple science of measuring frequency response simply and with simple equipment could be weak (paraphase). I mean, I'm a total fan of double-blind tests of speakers, but is 'playing simple one-frequency test-tones and measuring it with theory-laden electronics' *necessarily* a complete judge of a speaker?

Frankly, I'll still rely on those frequency response graphs because they're the best available to me. They're the best we've got. But who knows if they're perfect.

I think there's a good middle ground somewhere around here.

edit: Or at least there's an opening into discussing the testing methodology for speakers, amps, and such, and what such tests can and cannot say. I have to plead my ignorance on this.

RD

First...John...I'm heading your way for breakfast!!! Hold the avacado!!

Next...I'm somewhere on the fence here. And it's not a lack of faith in science...but rather the lack of any real science in that article. Hand waving and carte blanche statements about a $15000 amp sounding no better or marginally better than a $500 amp...really doesn't mean much to me. He offered no scientific data/references to back up this claim. He says double blind studies were conducted...etc etc. Where...by who...where are the references??? And...let's just suppose by some miracle ...this was true??... It would only be true the first day out of the box. Electronic components age...and often less than gracefully--higher end components...usually have much higher MBTF rates.

You don't have to convince me with regards to cables -- a few semesters of fields will remind you that at audio frequencies -- changes in impedance are negligible.

Oooh!!! I'm now an enthusiast!!! If only I could get promoted this quickly at work!!!

Raindance,

I, too, believe that scientific tests should be tempered with real-world listening. That's why double-blind tests are so appropriate. They involve listening to actual music, not test tones. They involve using your ears. They involve the concept of repeatability.

If you listen to two dissimilar receivers alternately swapped into a system, and you are never aware which component is currently active, you should be able to reliably hear a difference in the sound if all receivers of similar quality don't sound the same. This is a real-world, ears-only test -- no gadgets other than an SPL meter to level match the receivers are used.

If you are not able to repeatably (beyond a certain margin of error) identify when one receiver is playing vs. the other, then that's evidence in favor of the "receivers sound the same" theory. Of course, to put more weight behind any data, you'd need many people to partake in the test.

So now all you doubters can see that, in science, you still get to use your ears. Science is just a way of doing things that tries to separate out as much bias as possible.

2x6,

Why would you believe the Earth is round, or that it orbits the sun, or that light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second if you have not tested those "theories" yourself? I'm just sayin'...

I'm certainly not a doubter of science pm..( I do have a master's degree in Electrical Engineering--science is what I do)...I'm more a doubter of the actual scientific content of that article.

I'm not saying people shouldn't doubt. Doubt is also a basic tenet of science: don't trust your results until you'se seen them over and over again. And then once you publish your results, it's your peers' turns to doubt your results.

Science is really just a big doubt-fest.

well, i am gonna put my final $.02 cents in, then i am done with this thread. these scientific-vs-ears threads just get old.

eightman- hold the avocado?? are you nuts, they are delicious.

my bottom line comes down to this.. i will buy and keep the audio equipment that sounds good to MY ears. regardless of what any scientific testing, or someone elses ears thinks, if i like it i will keep it.

i am not a scientist, or an audio expert. but, i am an expert in what I like, so thats what I go with.

ya'll have fun beating this to death..

bigjohn

I really like avocados, but eat them rarely due to their expense and perceived negative impact on my weight.

I believe that the oatmeal I've been eating for breakfast is helping my overall level of health.

Finally, I enjoy listening to my hi-fi much more than I enjoy this thread.

I don't get why you guys make this stuff so important and so complicated. As to my opinion on the meat of this thread, if you could just sneak the phrase "rat's a$$" in there somewhere, I think you'd just about have it.

AMEN, tom!!

your preaching to the choir here!

and avocados are 'good' fat. healthy, so i read.. one or two a week never hurts!

bigjohn

I could be wrong here, but I believe current evolutionary theory holds that present-day ape species and humans have evolved from common ancestors. Those species are extinct. Humans are not descendants of any modern ape species, but descendants from a line of homonids that have at their root an ancestor in common with the simian line.
A seemingly small distinction, but...

not sure what all that means, but i can sure eat the hell out of some bananas!!

OK guys.. i know i am saying nothing constructive.. i am just trying to get to 300(addict) posts. bear with me..

bigjohn

Truth be told...I'm just trying to become a "local"...

Ahhh...geeez John...you beat me to it. That's what I get for taking a break from reading the forum...to work.

BigJohn, your breakfast blows my PB&J out of the water. Yes, I'm a grown man eating a PB&J and proud of it. No, I didn't cut the crusts off.

Work? We don't need to do no stinkin' work! Doh!!!....here comes the boss. Bye!

BigWill,

I majored in anthropology. By no means did I mean contemporary apes. But yes, there was a common ancestor way down the line somewhere.

there is no shame in PB&J.. i do that myself sometimes.. i prefer them with red plum preserves.. good balance of tart and sweet..

i just got up earlier than usual this morning, so i had some time to kill. i usually save the bacon and eggs for the weekends!

bigjohn

With the recent money spent on audio equipment, I have noticed that I have became what I despised as a child..
Pinto Beans
Spam
Tang
Ramen Noodles
more Beans
and on a special ocassion PBJ's

ha ha, I eat Muesli cereal for lunch everyday. $4.50 box lasts 7 days! gets to be rather routine though. perhaps I should augment my diet with any variation of the aforementioned pinto beans, ramen, pb&j, etc..

lunch for me is usually a little debbie nutty bar and a dr pepper.. sometimes a bag of popcorn if i am feeling really hungry.

anyone tried that 'kettle korn' yet?? its sweet out of the bag, kinda like like warm cracker jacks.. but you get no prize

bigjohn

PS- i am at 297!!!!!

I vote they change "addict" status to 500...

will that be before or after you replace my ordr with them bose??

hey, 299, only one away!!

bigjohn

jeebus! How are your arteries doing these days?

I started bringing my lunch to work as the local choices are either crap (burger king) or expensive (very tasty pastrami!). I though I'd get sick of PB&J quick, but it turns out I got sick of the smoked turkey sandwiches faster. There is just something special about a PB&J with raspberry preserves and chunky peanut butter for me. Yummy!

jr


PS Peter is right. Common ancestor in the ape family somewhere. (pot, $h!t, stir)....

In reply to:

---

I though I'd get sick of PB&J quick, but it turns out I got sick of the smoked turkey sandwiches faster.

---

Just don't try to "spice up" a dull sandwich with any guy-ish tricks.

I used to deliver drywall... know what kind of heartburn you get carrying 250lb bundles of 12s-5/8 fireguard up a 3 floor walkup in +35C weather with a gut full of warm 7-11 fountain Coke and salami sandwiches with barbeque sauce on them?

Bren R.

peter- clogged, im sure.. i havent been to the doc in a while, i reckon its gettin to be about that time again. i do eat rather healthy(lots of fish & chicken, no frying, whole grain, skim-milk, etc), its just the sweets, they kill me. not literally i hope!! i been trying to eat the sugar-free puddings, like the ones you put in your kids lunches, as a healthier alternative when the 'sweet bug' bites.

bren- i feel your pain man.. i did sprinkler installs when i was in college for xtra money, and that hard labor mixed with a spicy lunch and the texas heat.. just stick a fork in me, cause i was DONE!!

bigjohn

and there it is folks...

300 posts!!!!!!! i am an official adict. no, no.. please, no clapping..

finally, thank gosh.. my veins are spent

bigjohn

Bren, that's almost as bad as the poor college kid special goulash I used to make. Take 1 can chili, 1 can garbanzo beans, 1 can stewed tomatos, 1 can corn, dump them all in a saucepan and simmer for 10 minutes. Add ketchup/barbecue sauce/mustard to taste. Mmmmm Mmmmm good.

Peter, have you ever seen Blazing Saddles? The scene where the 'bad guys' are all sitting around the campfire....

I swear, that stuff was the most foul thing I've ever seen anyone eat on a regular basis. Did you actually choose the ingredients that carefully? I always got the impression you just threw whatever cans were in the cupboard in a pot and then covered them with random spices.

I though pickled herring snacks (in either wine sauce or sour cream sauce) was the most foul thing I ever ate, according to you.

Forgot about those.

I see, like the stickleback fish, when confronted with argument, folks who think they're scientists talk about food. That's OK.

Here's my catechism on the subject.

I believe people and pongids are descended from a common ancestor. I believe people and fish are descended from a common ancestor.

I think Einstein glimpsed part of the structural essence of it all, but that his vision will be subsumed into a greater more coherent theory of everything.

I believe that the price of equipment bears no necessary relationship to that piece's contribution to the sound we listen to. There's crappy expensive equipment and wonderful inexpensive equipment. By way of illustration, Axiom speakers provide incredible music reproduction ability at a very modest price. The Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT 5 watt per channel SET integrated amp is a steal at $700. A used Onkyo M-504 amp is a steal at $300. Reference 3a De Capo mm speakers are a steal at $2,500 a pair (book shelf size).

I don't believe the method of testing for single frequencies is an adequate methodology.

Not all science is good science. Not everything held out as "scientific" has anything to do with science. The article Chess mewled over is not science, it's some guy whose opinions Chess agrees with.


_________________-

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from insulting me.

I respect your statement about price not being necessarily relevant to sound quality.

Please cite a scientific article that supports your viewpoint and doesn't come from an audio magazine.

Oh, and if you state that you can't do this, because science cannot adequately explain complex waveforms, can you explain how the manufacturers of such quality goods as you cite manage to keep doing it? Is it luck?

"folks who think they're scientists" ...

What is it with your disdain of scientists?

You are 100% correct that the article chesseroo linked was not science. It was one guy's rant on his findings about the audio marketplace BASED ON the complete disconnect of marketing from actual scientific evidence. You are perfectly within your right not to give a rats a$$ (happy tomtuttle? ) about that scientific research, but it doesn't make the linked rant's conclusions any less true.

KC, I certainly did not mean to insult you, only to disagree with you. We're talking about sound equipment here, and a bit of philosophy of science, not religion. Peace.

B.J., if i may call you that, correct me if i'm wrong, but you don't even have axioms yet?? if i'm correct, what will you be once you have taken possession (sp)?
dan

In reply to:

---

I see, like the stickleback fish, when confronted with argument, folks who think they're scientists talk about food.

---

Well, i AM a scientist. Based on what i just read, and I really don't know much about your background of course or even if you are referring to the threespine stickleback (Gasterosteus aculeatus) or the ninespine stickleback (Pungitius pungitus (Linnaeus)) but here's a clue from Grade 2 science class, FISH CANNOT TALK.

I guess that is just my OPINION.

he'll be one happy MoFo

^billy

wow, this has gone from bad to worse..

2dan- when i said i was an addict, i was referring to my posts(over 300).. just one of those stupid goals i was going for while bored at work today. to be honest, once i get my AXIOMS home and set up my HT, i hopefully can be called a 'believer'.. i am buying these speakers sight unseen, and sound unheard. rest assured, there is a certain amount of uncertanity in my mind.. i hope that floats away with the sounds coming out of my new speakers.

bigjohn

2x6, I've met you and know you to be a more than decent fellow, but I think it is a lost cause to try and convince the "science club" that they should fork out huge bucks for dubious products. I, for one, will keep my money in my pocket.

Hi BigWill, I had the great pleasure of your hospitality, but I am a committed believer in quality on-the-cheap. I paid about $70 for my Mapleshade Clearview speaker cables - came with a problem, they were nice enough to upgrade me to a pair of Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus speaker wires. I love 'em. Someday, you'll come by my place and let me demo some cool stuff for you. There are some amps I like very much - I have a Yamaha M-80, and a Kenwood KA9100. Paid a total of a bit over $100 for the two of them and they are in mint condition. I am also proud of my big Onk - an Onkyo M504. I did go a bit crazy and paid $300 for that one. One of my favorite amplifier scores however is the Onkyo M282 a 120 watt x 2 amp with a very rich sound quality. They list for about $300 each, but you can grab them off ubid.com for under $100 every now and again.

I also love my Axiom and Michaura speakers - they outperform speakers which cost my friends many, many times the price of my Canadian beauties.

I think the idea here is quality at a price. Anyone can throw megabucks at the problem of sound reproduction and come away with a pretty nice system. The challenge is, putting together a system which sounds as good and costs WAY less.

My favorite great system on-the-cheap is my garage system - a mint Kenwood KA9100 solid state amp (cost me $20, the seller and I thought it was broken, turned out it was just the jumpers), a pair of Dahlquist DQM-905s ($50) and a ($10 garage sale item) JVC XL504 6 disc changer (sounds substantially better than a Cambridge D500SE I bought and then sold).

I picked up a 2 channel Kenwood THX amp rated at 200 wpc, thought I would love it - hated it. The KA9100 sounds better, so does the big Onk, I've had other amps whose sound I did not like. I bought them thinking I would. Placebo effect? It's all in the sounds boys and girls, not the price, and they don't all sound the same.

PMB,
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not a 'science doubter' in any sense of the word- and I agree with you about double-blind tests and was very pro-double-blind tests in my post.

My issue, and I'd guess that you're sympathetic to this, is with people who extrapolate a little too far from scientific results and/or who call on science "as a drunk uses a lightpost- for support, not illumination". In professional scientific journals, published results of experiments always seem very tentative and limited in scope- I'd say proper science is usually rather tentative.

This guy (and I enjoyed the read, kcarlile- thanks) struck me as not tentative, step-by-step, objective, citing other literature, and 'scientific', but informal and informative. There's definitely a need for information like this, but the article was definitely not 'scientific' though he tries to come off as a scientist.

He does make a lot of good points, but he doesn't come off as what he says he is. He's saying "I'm a scientist" to back up his claims, yet not being scientific, and that's a little bothersome.

So, I really enjoyed the read, and I think he's right on more points than not. But it's only a collection of assertions, not proof of something.

Good night guys,

Mike

In reply to:

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the "science club"

---

I think that's a misleading label... it's not science versus voodoo, there are basic fundamentals of electricity, physics and engineering at work here. We're not talking about guys in lab coats stuck far away from the real world, we're talking about technicians - guys who do this day-in, day-out for 20+ years.

You're comparing a holistic healer to a biomed student when you should be comparing the shaman to an ER attending physician. It's all about the ratio of theory to practice and how that compares to blind faith and sensory perception.

Bren R.

In reply to:

---

I don't believe the method of testing for single frequencies is an adequate methodology.

---

You keep saying this, and yet I don't think anyone in this thread, or the author of the 'rant' chess linked, has argued the opposite, nor have you responded to those arguing for testing with regular music, which I assume you'd be fine with. To quote Peter:

In reply to:

---

I, too, believe that scientific tests should be tempered with real-world listening. That's why double-blind tests are so appropriate. They involve listening to actual music, not test tones. They involve using your ears. They involve the concept of repeatability.

If you listen to two dissimilar receivers alternately swapped into a system, and you are never aware which component is currently active, you should be able to reliably hear a difference in the sound if all receivers of similar quality don't sound the same. This is a real-world, ears-only test -- no gadgets other than an SPL meter to level match the receivers are used.

---

As far as I know, this is how most double-blind tests are performed - with regular music. How do you feel about this (I'm being honest - I don't think I've caught a response from you regarding double-blind testing).

Oh, and also:

In reply to:

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Reference 3a De Capo mm speakers are a steal at $2,500 a pair (book shelf size).

---

Some might argue whether $2500 is a steal for bookshelf speakers.

was just yanking your chain. i too purchased w/out listening; sure glad they turned out to be more than i hoped they would be. coming from massachusetts, i would describe them as pissa.
dan

2dan-your from mass., huh.. now from here on out, everytime i read your posts, i will use my 'boston rob' voice from survivor.

i hope "pissa" means good, cause down here in texas, we dont use that word do describe anything as being good. unless you been drinkin alot of beer, then pissa is a very good, realeaving thing.

bigjohn

bj, if it's really good, the it's wicked pissa

Just an initial warning: I don't mean to insult anyone and I love you all. This is a product of very little sleep.

For those who skimmed this thread, here's a quick recap (with apologies and winks where appropriate):

chessroo: Check this out- more proof there really aren't gremlins inside of speakers.

assorted folks: Cool, that's good to know-- I'll stop stuffing food down the gorilla port.

2x6spds: scientific reductionism is *so* mid-1900s. We're in the postmodern era- who are you to say there aren't gremlins in speakers?

assorted folks: gremlins?!? HAHAHA

Raindance: No wait, guys- 2x might have a point.

assorted folks: gremlins?!? HAHAH...

Raindance: Not exactly gremlins in the normal sense of the word, but there might be some properties of speakers or amps that aren't easy to measure or conduct double-blind tests on. [I took the liberty of conveniently adding on that last bit here, even though I never said it- RD]

eightmanvt: I wish I had $15000 to blow on an amp!

pmbuko: so... if no one can hear the difference repeatedly in tests, what makes you think the difference is there (if you can't see it, feel it, smell it, hear it, taste it, then...)? What are you smoking, anyway?

pmbuko: oh yeah, and science rocks!

bigjohn: avocados rock!

tomtuttle: you guys are crazy.

BigWillI like monkeys.

pmbuko: me too.

various folks: We like food.

2x6spds: well, I don't like food. I do like my speakers. You lack understanding, grasshopper- your way of understanding speakers- to wit, your science- is weak.

pmbuko and kcarlile: you science hater!!

2x6spds: I didn't mean that the way you took it. And anyway, are we really talking about science here?

chessroo: Yes we are.

bigjohn: I'm an addict- I need help!

BigWill: 2x6spds, don't you remember-- the first rule of gremlin club is you do not talk about...

2x6spds: nevermind that- I think I have a scientific point here.

Raindance: Science does rock, pmbuko. But hey, this guy who wrote the article is a fake!

BrenR: can't we all be scientific and get along?

AdamP88: I don't get along with those who don't like double-blind listening tests!!

bigjohn: I like beer.

---------
To be continued...

Post of the Year!

Unfortunately, it could apply to so many threads besides this one.

Thank you, Mike. That is hilarious.

HAHA, yes.. i think that pretty much covers it. funny stuff man..

avocados- GOOD
beer- GOOD
avocados & beer together- NOT GOOD

and gremlins taste delicious with maple syrup.

bigjohn

Raindance, you not only rock, you grock!!

And...I do wish I had 15000 dollars to toss around...but it would go towards a boat!!

Absolutely FABULOUS post! You must be one of those people who are most creative when they are sleep deprived, and exhausted. I've had that experience too. BRAVO! BRAVO!

I guess I do like monkeys, but it sounds funny when you say it.

8man-

keep in mind the two greatest days in a boat owners life.. their best day, is the day they buy the boat!! their second best day, is the day they sell it!!

i say this from experience.. i have a 18 foot SEARAY that runs great, when its running!!!

best of luck..

bigjohn

I like monkeys.

The pet store was selling them for five cents a piece. I thought that odd since they were normally a couple thousand each. I decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth. I bought 200. I like monkeys.

I took my 200 monkeys home. I have a big car. I let one drive. His name was Sigmund. He was retarded. In fact, none of them were really bright. They kept punching themselves in their genitals. I laughed. Then they punched my genitals. I stopped laughing.

I herded them into my room. They didn't adapt very well to their new environment. They would screech, hurl themselves off of the couch at high speeds and slam into the wall. Although humorous at first, the spectacle lost its novelty halfway into its third hour.

Two hours later I found out why all the monkeys were so inexpensive: they all died. No apparent reason. They all just sorta' dropped dead. Kinda' like when you buy a goldfish and it dies five hours later. Damn
cheap monkeys.

I didn't know what to do. There were 200 dead monkeys lying all over my room, on the bed, in the dresser, hanging from my bookcase. It looked like I had 200 throw rugs.

I tried to flush one down the toilet. It didn't work. It got stuck. Then I had one dead, wet monkey and 199 dead, dry monkeys. I tried pretending that they were just stuffed animals. That worked for a while, that is until they began to decompose. It started to smell real bad.

I had to pee but there was a dead monkey in the toilet and I didn't want to call the plumber. I was embarrassed.

I tried to slow down the decomposition by freezing them. Unfortunately there was only enough room for two monkeys at a time so I had to change them every 30 seconds. I also had to eat all the food in the freezer so it didn't all go bad.

I tried burning them. Little did I know my bed was flammable. I had to extinguish the fire.

Then I had one dead, wet monkey in my toilet, two dead, frozen monkeys in my freezer, and 197 dead, charred monkeys in a pile on my bed. The odor wasn't improving.

I became agitated at my inability to dispose of my monkeys and to use the bathroom. I severely beat one of my monkeys. I felt better.

I tried throwing them way but the garbage man said that the city wasn't allowed to dispose of charred primates. I told him that I had a wet one. He couldn't take that one either. I didn't bother asking about the frozen ones.

I finally arrived at a solution. I gave them out as Christmas gifts. My friends didn't know quite what to say. They pretended that they like them but I could tell they were lying. Ingrates. So I punched them in the genitals.

I like monkeys.

That has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever read on the boards. I think I hurt myself trying not to laugh too loudly so my clients wouldn't notice...

B, sorry for your loss, however, you were lucky.

You were about to suffer one of the most chaotic and disturbing of primate events, the GREAT SH]T FIGHT IN THE MONKEY HOUSE. Once you've seen one, you never want to see another. Once you've seen one, you're never really altogether right with things again.

In reply to:

---

B, sorry for your loss, however, you were lucky.

---

No, no... wasn't my writing at all, that one's been floating around the internet since... '96?

Bren R.

Here's another that's been around for awhile, but it gets me everytime.


Attached is some correspondence which actually occurred between a
London hotel's staff and one of its guests. The London hotel
involved submitted this to the Sunday Times. No name was mentioned.

WHAT TO DO WITH ALL THOSE "FREE" SOAPS WHEN TRAVELING
******************************************************

Dear Maid,
Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my
bathroom since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial. Please remove
the six unopened little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest
and another three in the shower soap dish. They are in my way.
Thank you,
S. Berman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Room 238,
I am not your regular maid. She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, from
her day off. I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap dish as
you requested. The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your way and
put on top of your Kleenex dispenser in case you should change your
mind. This leaves only the 3 bars I left today which my instructions
>from the management is to leave 3 soaps daily.
I hope this is satisfactory.
Kathy, Relief Maid

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Maid -- I hope you are my regular maid.
Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the
little bars of soap. When I got back to my room this evening I found
you had added 3 little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet.
I am going to be here in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my
own bath-size Dial so I won't need those 6 little Camays which are on
the shelf. They are in my way when shaving, brushing teeth, etc.
Please remove them.
S. Berman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Berman,
My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which
we are instructed by the management. I took the 6 soaps which were in
your way on the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your Dial
was. I put the Dial in the medicine cabinet for your convenience.
I didn't remove the 3 complimentary soaps which are always placed
inside the medicine cabinet for all new check-ins and which you did
not object to when you checked in last Monday. Please let me
know if I can of further assistance.
Your regular maid,
Dotty

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Berman,
The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this A.M. that you
called him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid
service. I have assigned a new girl to your room. I hope you will
accept my apologies for any past inconvenience. If you have any
future complaints please contact me so I can give it my personal
attention. Call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you.
Elaine Carmen
Housekeeper

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Miss Carmen,
It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for
business at 745 AM and don't get back before 530 or 6PM. That's the
reason I called Mr. Kensedder last night. You were already off duty.
I only asked Mr. Kensedder if he could do anything about those little
bars of soap. The new maid you assigned me must have thought I was a
new check-in today, since she left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my
medicine cabinet along with her regular delivery of 3 bars on the
bath-room shelf. In just 5 days here I have accumulated 24 little
bars of soap. Why are you doing this to me?
S. Berman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Berman,
Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your
room and remove the extra soaps. If I can be of further assistance,
please call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you,
Elaine Carmen,
Housekeeper

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Kensedder,
My bath-size Dial is missing. Every bar of soap was taken from my
room including my own bath-size Dial. I came in late last night and
had to call the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets.
S. Berman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Berman,
I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem.
I cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our maids
are instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a room.
The situation will be rectified immediately. Please accept my
apologies for the inconvenience.
Martin L. Kensedder
Assistant Manager

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mrs. Carmen,
Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last
night and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars
of Camay. I want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize I
have 54 bars of soap in here. All I want is my bath size Dial.
Please give me back my bath-size Dial.
S. Berman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Berman,
You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed.
Then you complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing so
I personally returned them. The 24 Camays which had been taken and
the 3 Camays you are supposed to receive daily (sic). I don't know
anything about the 4 Cashmere Bouquets. Obviously your maid, Kathy,
did not know I had returned your soaps so she also brought 24 Camays
plus the 3 daily Camays. I don't know where you got the idea this
hotel issues bath-size Dial. I was able to locate some bath-size
Ivory which I left in your room.
Elaine Carmen
Housekeeper

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mrs. Carmen,
Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap inventory.
As of today I possess:

- On shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay in 4 stacks of
4 and 1 stack of 2.
- On Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay in 2 stacks of 4 and 1
stack of 3.
- On bedroom dresser - 1 stack of 3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1
stack of 4 hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2 stacks of 4.
- Inside medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4 and 1
stack of 2.
- In shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist.
- On northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used.
- On northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3.

Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks are
neatly piled and dusted. Also, please advise her that stacks of more
than 4 have a tendency to tip. May I suggest that my bedroom window
sill is not in use and will make an excellent spot for future soap
deliveries. One more item, I have purchased another bar of bath-sized
Dial which I am keeping in the hotel vault in order to avoid further
misunderstandings.
S. Berman

That was very long. Soap ... right.

BigWill does indeed like hotel soaps.

Those little bars of soap have come in handy. I purposefully collected as many of them as possible in my travels. I'd even grab handfuls of them from the maids' carts when they weren't looking.

When I taught in the California Youth Authority (educating the primates caged there, y'know) I used the little soaps as incentives in the classroom. I could get murderous little bastards to do their assignments for the chance to take back a little bar of soap. It seems the state soap was too harsh for the sensitive skin of those fine young lads. Powerful thing, a little bar of soap. I still have about a hundred of 'em.

Diplomacy - thy name is Raindance

Excellent post!! I have to go away now for some therapy on my poor aching ribs ... from laughing

Sean

Hmmm....I'm beginning to believe there's more than just one sleep deprived person around here...

And John....now you're just trying to scare me!!!!

Adding more fuel to the fire.

/pours lighter fluid on flames...

Monkeys are very cool, but not as cool as chimps. (I needed that segue to relay a story my dad once told me.)

My dad was at a zoo once and was watching some chimps at mealtime. One chimp was eating a peach. When he got to the pit, he held it up and looked at it for a moment, and then bent over and inserted it partway into his anus. With a satisfied look on his face, he then removed it put it into his mouth and ate it.

He was just checking to make sure it would fit on the way out.

But did the stinky fingerered chimp proclaim himself a scientist?

I doubt he first formed a hypothesis before performing that experiment.

I've figured you out, 2x6. You hold that being a scientist is an unattainable ideal. Your god is Scientist. Therefore, none of us puny mortals could possibly be a scientist, know anything scientific, understand the scientific method, propose testing methodologies, take classes, hold degrees, or use logical reasoning, since we are not divine.

It all makes sense now.

Oh yeah, and implying that people who say that they are scientists are "stinky apes" would, in fact, qualify as an insult. As would calling them the equivalent of cowardly fish.