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Deep Dive M5
#437840 08/28/20 12:19 AM
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This thread will be all about my purchase, setup and tweaking to the enth of some new M5hps in Rosewood with high gloss finish. These replaced some small bookshelves in my 2ch listening room setup that lacked the grunt to stir up the grin factory once I spun the room to fire with the long axis in the speaker setup thread.

I havent owned the M5s long enough to comment on their strengths and weaknesses yet properly, but I can say I like them and they are here to stay. They arrived sturdily boxed and in great shape. No issues with shipping in my area. Live in PEI? The FedEx depot here seems civil here. Good stuff. Order up!

Initial impressions- The finish is pretty good. Not stellar. The driver cnc routing is 1/32 larger than the woofer, I can see bare MDF barely up close. Mid and tweeter are snug. There is masking tape to be seen looking into the port on the rear of the front baffle. The lacquer finish orange peeled when curing. Of course, you can’t see any of these issues from the listening chair (and they dont affect sound quality) but out of the bag on the kitchen table I thought hmmmm.....

Upon initial setup I was less than impressed with them atop their shipping boxes. Too high! Duh. Definite bass exageration and treble shading. Typical for a vertical TMW config. All good. Using these as raised surrounds is a good idea if you want full range punchiness. With the woofer at eye level the tactile presence was undeniable!

I dropped them down onto a couple of bulk wire boxes from installs of approx 14 inches. A little too low but the balance swung to favour more treble. Aha! Height tweaking possibility to flavour balance later...

I grabbed some cinder blocks from the yard at work and unlocked the Axiom black bag hack. Listening happily now at 16” AFF for now. Going to build some stands later.

They sounded pretty grainy for the first few hours. Not sure if it was my imagination. I mess with different speakers all the time with installs. Dont think so. Not atypical either.... Out of the box speakers are like ball gloves. They work, but not quite double play material yet. Pretty normal I think (based on the setup of about a dozen systems from JBL, Tannoy, Mordaunt Short, ELAC, DefTech, Proficient, PSB, KEF, Yamaha, Yorkville, Leema, RSL, Polk, and some big Ole DIY towers and now Axiom.)

Anyhow, more to follow once I start dialing them in.

[Linked Image from imgpile.com]

[Linked Image from imgpile.com]

[Linked Image from imgpile.com]

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437841 08/28/20 01:48 AM
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Nice room. Try them with tweeters 6" below your ears. Bass isn't too bloated in that room?


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437842 08/28/20 02:50 AM
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Those speakers look amazing! great pics. And how to do they sound? Gainey?

Last edited by Rebulx; 08/28/20 02:52 AM.

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manufactures...mostly Axiom
Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437844 08/28/20 09:06 AM
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Reblux, I would say they started off a little hard and grainy for sure. I would not have kept them. Much much better after a few hours. Sounding impressive now. Again, this is normal in my experience.

Will be recommending these for sure for future installs I do. A surround system with these all around and decent in-ceilings would be a great experience. 3 people are pending right now... likely winter. What strikes me already is just how good they sound at a distance. They dont fall off in treble or bass as you get further away or leave the listening axis. These would be great for a distributed audio install or surrounds located further than normal.

For the price they are a bargain for the performance you get. I have been a member here for a good while -never owning Axiom products. Next DIY project a time machine to buy them sooner perhaps.

Mojo, I will have to try out heights for sure. Going to get that figured out better before building new stands. This is far from over. crazy

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437847 08/28/20 12:39 PM
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Ian did all the cross-over work on those puppies. They put my M80v2 to shame. They also soundstage and image far better than M100s in my rooms. The M100s sound more like real music though.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437857 08/28/20 10:54 PM
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Trevor,
I would just like to comment here: 1/32 of an inch spacing on the CNC woodwork machining to drivers ?
Honestly, as a professional woodworking cabinet maker, we need that type of spacing on veneer products to metal parts. If you ever wish to change out a driver part, you will not be able to remove it with tighter fitment man. We are talking .031 inch spacing. It's perfect in real terms.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437858 08/28/20 10:56 PM
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And as a follow-up.... you should see Ian's Santose Rosewood finish in Satin. My Bryston Model T's are just fabulous.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437859 08/28/20 11:14 PM
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Slim, I wish I had your mad wood-working and machining skills, Real gifts!


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437860 08/29/20 01:01 AM
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If they ever lift the border travel limits, you are welcomed to visit the coast ... with Ian of course smile

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437861 08/29/20 01:03 AM
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Mojo, you should get the T's

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437862 08/29/20 01:14 AM
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Lol. Didnt mean to offend. I like them fine. They sound good. Going to sell a set likely this Sunday with a demo..... have a build coming up.

Re: Deep Dive M5
Slimpikins #437868 08/29/20 04:16 AM
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I take it that you recommend the santos rosewood in satin ... I’m seriously thinking about doing that.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437870 08/29/20 04:19 AM
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Yes he does and so do I. He also likes his sealed, custom M80 centre and QS10s.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437871 08/29/20 04:28 AM
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Mojo I’m taking about the finish ... Santos Rosewood in satin
I’m interested in satin to keep down reflections from the screen

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437872 08/29/20 05:04 AM
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So am I.

You do know you'll get reflections no matter the finish. Easiest way to eliminate acoustic reflections from your TV is to get rid of it.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437874 08/29/20 10:36 AM
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Im sure satin would be fine. You can knock down reflections with a very light wet sand with 1500 grit.

We had a family BBQ last night so the M5s had a good workout. Liking them more and more. They really seem to like playing loud. Which is handy and fun for hearing music over kids running around being kids. laugh

Oh yeah, before bed I grabbed a metric allen key and tightened up all the fasteners. Highly recommend doing this. Just go snug. Dont overdo it. smile

The tweeter to waveguide werent too bad. The other screws mating to the cab all gained between 1 and 3 turns. Pretty normal with new speakers. Easy tweak everyone should do.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437876 08/29/20 02:34 PM
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I've thrown the entire ADA-1500-2 at them. Crossed over to my 800, they did not distort. Without the 800, the HP driver distorts. I don't consider that a short-coming at those ridiculous power levels. Everything has a limit and this one is practically no limit at all for the intended application.

With a sub, they can be driven to 107dBC peaks at 14 feet MLP.

Set up properly in a room, the imaging and soundstage are surreal. Then again, so is the M2, M3 and M50. The surrealness comes from dropping the tweeters below ear level.

They are the highest value, most versatile speaker Axiom makes.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437898 08/30/20 06:41 PM
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Demo complete. Pretty sure another Axiom customer heading their way. Should be a fun setup for me to help out on. Not sure how many speakers he will go for at once. Maybe just LCR for now. Budgets are a bummer... laugh

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437903 08/30/20 09:39 PM
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Oh yeah? Can't give up being Mr. Wavefront, eh? smile


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Nah. Just for fun now. smile

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437914 08/31/20 12:42 AM
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Really starting to love these M5s now. Listening to Massive Attack-Blue Lines. What a great album on great speakers. Happy Happy.

Not going to drop them too low. In my room the treble balance is right just below ear level with tweeter height. Raising the speaker emphasises bass and the woofer becomes very tactile. Really nice impact for a 6.5” woofer. Lowering the speaker really starts to emphasize treble and reduces bass and mid energy in my room. Very handy for tweaking the balance. If you have bass bloom just drop them down a bit.

I should note these sound and image perfectly with the tweeter at seated ear height. The M5s have an excellent balance. Very pleasing sound.

Speaker stands will likely be 20” or so for my seated height.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437995 09/02/20 08:47 PM
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Well, the demo paid off. And so begins a new audio saga.

Will be playing around with more M5s soon. Whitewashed Maple. Cool. smile

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437996 09/02/20 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TrevorM
I should note these sound and image perfectly with the tweeter at seated ear height. The M5s have an excellent balance. Very pleasing sound. Speaker stands will likely be 20” or so for my seated height.

I find this very interesting. In every room I've tried them, including my friends, they image so much better when the tweeters are about 6" below the ears. When they are at ear level, sounds tend to collapse into the left and right speakers. But when they are lower, they acoustically disappear by projecting those same sounds into the space behind them. I place them wide BTW.

Ditto with the M2 and M3 bookshelves. The M2OW are different. Their tweeters are at ear level and they acoustically disappear and are extremely dispersive projecting sound well beyond their boundaries while maintaining imaging.

P.S. Not saying you are wrong. I am just trying to understand why the difference.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #437997 09/02/20 10:23 PM
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I always place speakers a little narrower than equilateral and toe in fairly direct to the ear when near walls.

Typically speakers will fool you into dissapearing when the direct sound and indirect sound are more balanced in frequency and amplitude. Too much direct sound equals narrow soundstage and hard center with hard left and right images. Too much indirect sound removes weight from central image and can make images kind of diffuse instead of solid. Really a balancing act. Hence lfr1100s or game of inches with front radiating speakers. Also why dipoles are so fussy about setup. No sidewall energy. Lfrs have balanced sound and reflections -with a switch to increase rear output and treble when further from front wall... Oversimplifying of course. smile

My speakers are placed closer to walls so I toe in harder. I need less treble intentionally sent to the wall when closer. Bass largely goes through it. If you have to cheat your speakers really wide for them to dissapear you are giving a little weight away from the center image is all. Could show your lateral reflections are weaker -as in a width room setup. You also mentioned your room can sound bass heavy. Chances are lowering your speakers a little enhances the sweetness of voices by shading the bass a little bit. Also, firing across the short axis raises the resonant frequency vs long axis, so bloom is usually a struggle with fuller range speakers in rooms less than 14’ across. This puts the fundamental at 40 hz and gets higher as the room shrinks.

Hope this makes sense and I dont sound like either a kook or wizard. Really neither. Lol.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #438004 09/03/20 01:09 PM
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That's a really great explanation of the relationship between direct and indirect sound and the acoustic disappearance effect. That balance is struck perfectly in my living room with the M2OW. I've frankly found it difficult to strike a balance with largish speakers in any of my rooms - too much direct sound. The actives sure help but even there, I can see where drivers on the outboard sides would make a huge difference. I know that might not be very easy to accomplish.

I hear what you're saying about the bass. For my tastes, the effect of width and disappearance is of primary importance. In my circles, I've found once listeners hear this effect, they find it very addictive.

If you get the chance, try the M5s lower, wide and 2 to 3 feet away from the front wall. The effect is quite uncanny. It's like they paint images in the space behind them. I've told Axiom this and I'm sure they think I'm nuts but I think there's something there that ought to be researched. That's how they're placed at my friend's and she's addicted to it.

Last edited by Mojo; 09/03/20 01:10 PM.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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4’ from front wall to baffle and 4” below ear height right now (as pictured). Hard to see that in the pics but they are as you mention. Sound great!

Re: Deep Dive M5
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Pretty amazing, eh? That's something I don't think Axiom even knows about let alone understand. I've tried to do that with non-Axioms. No can do! Let me know if you ever find one that can do it.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Yep. Pretty cool. My old speakers did it too. They were great, just not stout enough. Poor things. laugh

Here is a great track for front to back layering. Pretty fun in here.

Pigbag- Papas got a brand new Pigbag
https://open.spotify.com/track/3y5QiODYY0CDODY1EFwHyD?si=EqgjaYnfTbSi4SdU6I8tLA

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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #438026 09/03/20 10:38 PM
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Next step in here is a big front wall QRD diffuser. Other chores first...... lol.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #438027 09/03/20 10:57 PM
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Pierre Sprey, Mapleshade Audio, (helped design the F-16 and A-10 Warthog) recommends placing speakers on floor stands tilted upwards aimed at listening position. I do this with my Dahlquists and to excellent effect.

Last edited by 2x6spds; 09/03/20 10:57 PM.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
2x6spds #438029 09/03/20 11:51 PM
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I have done the same with my JBL 4410s also to excellent effect!
Jeff

Re: Deep Dive M5
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Originally Posted by TrevorM
Yep. Pretty cool. My old speakers did it too. They were great, just not stout enough. Poor things. laugh

Here is a great track for front to back layering. Pretty fun in here.

Pigbag- Papas got a brand new Pigbag
https://open.spotify.com/track/3y5QiODYY0CDODY1EFwHyD?si=EqgjaYnfTbSi4SdU6I8tLA

Great tune. It's a whole different layer cake on the actives compared to M2OW. The crappy subs in my M2OW system are ruining the depth.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Originally Posted by TrevorM
Next step in here is a big front wall QRD diffuser. Other chores first...... lol.

I want to put your panels on my ceiling and two 6 foot diffusers on the front.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #438035 09/04/20 09:17 AM
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I tride the M5s tilted up on folding chairs. In this room I had to shim the back legs with CD cases to get them level. Sounded much better to my ears that way. Whatever works though. smile

Admittedly, they were too high to be tilting up and were firing above my head likely from that distance.

I guess the takeaway is the variability with proper setup and tweaking for individual rooms. The guy I had over had never heard a properly set up stereo pair. Really makes a big difference when the speakers are put where they sound best and not look best. I always tell people they will get used to the speakers being out in the room a bit. Easier to vacuum behind ‘em!

Re: Deep Dive M5
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Hi Trevor

I don't think a folding chair will help you out there. Try putting them on the floor and putting something under the speaker to tip it up so it's aimed at your seating position.

[img]https://app.photobucket.com/u/2x6spds/p/f738a63c-193b-48bf-b9d4-2659f3196e67[/img]

Last edited by 2x6spds; 09/04/20 09:16 PM.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Interesting, Philip. Where is the soundstage in that set-up. Is it "on the floor"?


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #438144 09/14/20 01:56 AM
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Trevor, are you in a 12x20 room?


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Right. Get M100s. In a room like yours, they are incredible!


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Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #438164 09/15/20 08:51 PM
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Lol. Happy with the M5s fer now.

Too many other bills right now.

Re: Deep Dive M5
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These M5hps continue to impress... I had a puttering mood fall upon me and messed with recabling the M5s.

I finally got into making some cables for them out of 18/4 twisted high spec belden cable. Extremely low capacitance and inductance. Higher resistance, but I planned on parallelling them. Bought a box special for re-feeding my basement towers eventually. So I turned 18/4 to 15/2 and fed the woofer and mid/tweet with parallel cables.

FAIL.

I used a drill and twisted two runs together to make a bi-wire 15/2 star quad out of the 18/4. Instantly regretted it and went over everything to make sure something wasnt wrong..... I had removed the jumper straps. Connections were tight. Hmmmm. The runs are the same length and short at 10’.

It was indeed the cable folks. I can hear cables in this system. It wasnt subtle. Shut the front door. They were even noticably quieter. Vocals were recessed. Bass was weaker.

I swapped the 10/2 belden back in to the woofers and swapped a run of provo 16/4 in star quad to each mid/tweet (top posts). Let the head scratching begin.

I dont know what to say except wow. I’m off meds or something.....

Custom cable setup 1- 1 run to each speaker 5T00UP belden 10/2 bulk from bluejeans with jumpers in. Nice bass weight. Lived with it for a long time liked it fine.

Custom cable setup 2- 2 runs to each speaker woofers and mid/tweet in star quad (turned 2x18/4 to 15/2) (bad): No bass. Flat vocals.
[Linked Image from imgpile.com]

Custom cable setup 3- 2 runs to each speaker. Belden 5T00UP 10/2 from bluejeans to woofers and provo 16/4 in star quad to mid/tweet. Wow. Call me a convert.
[Linked Image from imgpile.com]


Highly highly recommend the super cheap, readily available provo in star quad setup. Black/Red and White/Green. I always use it, but funnily enough never bothered with it at home in a biwire setup. Or a comparison.... The 10/2 on bass and 16/4 star quad on mid/tweet is baffling.

These M5hps are an awakening. Dumbfounded.

Let the flogging begin. Disgraced. Lol.

Re: Deep Dive M5
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Mojo, shoot me a pm and I will send you a pair of the provo. I gotta have someone else try it. I know you have a keen ear. I feel crazy.

I’ll send the “crap” cable. Equivalent 12/2. And a “good” cable. Equivalent 13/2.

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Thanks, Trevor. I'll shoot you an email. Can you link specs to the cables? I am particularly interested in the insulation material.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Belden 18/4
https://edesk.belden.com/products/techdata/english/pdf/5322UL.pdf

Belden 10/2
https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/5T00UP_techdata.pdf

Provo 16/4
http://www.provowire.com/images/specs/Provo_Wire_Spec_PartNo_9164.pdf

I couldnt find the 7164 but seems they are pretty much the same.

Got message. Cut and boxed. Ship tomorrow. smile Sending pair of all 3.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Thank you, Trevor. I really look forward to this. I've dismantled "the lab" and have been enjoying music. Now I'm getting sucked back into analysis. I feel like I am in the mob, man. smile


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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I forgot to mention you may want to check what's in the "vicinity" of the cable routing. If there's anything with iron content along the routing, that will affect cable inductance (relative permeability). Air is best. Cable capacitance will also be affected (relative permittivity) by various oil-based products, glass, etc. To keep capacitance as low as possible, the cables ought to be surrounded by air. Concrete for example is 4 times more permittive than air making the capacitance 4 times greater so raising the cables off the floor may improve bass!

So how you route each cable is important. If you want to get really anal about it, you can't route one cable in the "vicinity" of the other even if the other is not powered.

The other things that matter to inductance and capacitance are the insulation, the distance between the two conductors and the cable length. The difference between the diameters of each conductor matters too but I'm quite sure the conductors for each cable are identical so that difference is nil.

Last edited by Mojo; 12/15/20 05:33 PM.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Gotcha and well put. The cables were ran the exact same path for each iteration. Not a cabling routing issue I can say with certainty.

I am interested in what you find -if anything at all. Canada post is on the job now. Heading your way. Tracking in your email. Doesn't matter what you find I guess. We will be disproved by some oversight missed. laugh Should be a fun read once you get to it.

I can say, superstition or no, that I wont be changing anything in this room now until I get my forever stands in place (it's been hinted Santa might bring me some). I now get the 180 degree effect you have been mentioning. Never experienced that before with 2 passive speakers alone without DSP involved. Pretty neat. Would honestly rather listen to music on this setup now over the basement with 7.2.4 ATMOS engaged. Just a nicer room to sit in with lights on and sounds utterly fantastic. Bragably good. Will sell more M5HPs for sure as I keep being asked by people what to buy right now. After a demo it's a lock. smile

Kudos to Andrew and Ian for making M5HP speakers so well they may serve as a lab tool for testing things upstream from them, and Me for setting up such a super duper room. LOL.

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Another coworker apparently pulling the trigger on M5HPs. 4 orders now. Lol. Awesome.

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See there's a couple pairs of M5HPs in the bstock on sale with 20% more off. Sure a great bargain for someone out there. smile

Re: Deep Dive M5
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The cables are in a storage compartment at my community mailbox but the key Canada Post gave me won't open it. I have to call them.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Held Hostage till the new year. :gasp:

Re: Deep Dive M5
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After a half hour of botting and trying to submit a ticket, I got a real person. The online ticketing tool demands an email address but won't accept the @ symbol...lol! Likely won't be able to free them until next week.

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You showed that bot who the boss is!! Useless bots!!


M60ti Hafler9505 & JFET Pre,Axiom Transformer. M3 Marantz PM7200 Dual 606 Denon 2700 M2 Yammy RX595
Re: Deep Dive M5
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They're here! I look forward to trying them out soon after the 12th. Thanks, Trevor.

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Those are them! Sorry it wasnt the laptop the box suggested. laugh

Re: Deep Dive M5
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You packed them nicely with M5 packing foam for support. smile


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Yessir

Re: Deep Dive M5
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Speaker cable update time.

TrevorM has been experimenting with speaker cables and he was kind enough to send me some and get my opinion. I am not sure there's a right or wrong answer but I'll let you all know what I heard. This is all very scientific-like. smile

------ Components -------------

The components I used look like this: Late 1980s vintage tape deck --> ADA-1000 --> M50v4. That's it. No receiver, no pre-amp, no subs...nothing. Before you start laughing about the tape deck, it does have Dolby C NR and I only used the highest quality metal tapes. smile I was sitting 12 feet away from the M50v4 in my 4200 cu ft room.

------ Cables -------------

Trevor in the posts above described the cables and their published specs. I refer to them as licorice twist, white, and gray. I don't think any of these are classified as speaker cables but I could be wrong. To these I added 16AWG speaker cable available from anywhere, green jacketed 12 AWG speaker cable from Revy from 14 years ago intended to go in-wall, and KnuConceptz 12AWG speaker cable from Amazon. All cables were cut to 10 feet.

------- Music ---------------

I listened to Bob Marley's Legend. I recorded this from CD to tape back in 1991.

------- Measurements ---------

I measured after I listened. I don't have any fancy equipment. I have a digital multi-meter (DMM) and an SPL meter. I used the DMM to measure cable capacitance. I then divided the measured capacitance by the cable length to get the capacitance per foot. The resistance was negligible for all cables but I've recorded it below anyway. My meter cannot read resistance below 0.1 Ohm. I have no way to measure inductance. I used the first track to measure the peak SPL in dBC. There was negligible difference in peak SPL but I recorded it below anyway. The cables below are in no particular order. The number is just an ID for reference.

1. Licorice twist ------------ 0.1 Ohm, 125 pF/foot, 102 dBC peak
2. White --------------------- 0.1 Ohm, 95 pF/foot, 101.5 dBC peak
3. Gray ---------------------- 0.1 Ohm, 29 pF/foot, 101.5 dBC peak
4. 16 AWG generic --------- 0.1 Ohm, 25 pF/foot, 101.5 dBC peak
5. Green Revy 12 AWG ---- 0 Ohm, 26 pF/foot, 101 dBC peak
6. KnuConceptz 12 AWG -- 0 Ohm, 17 pF/foot, 101 dBC peak

There was no significant difference in cable capacitance as I varied the paths of the cables, moved them closer or further to boundaries or twisted them into various shapes.

-------- Listening Impressions ---------

I do not have a switcher. I listened, swapped cables and listened some more.

You'd have to be a real bad listener to not be able to pick out the difference in bass between the first two cables and all the others. With these first two, the bass was flabby and uncontrolled. Mid-bass was depressed. Mids were smeared and highs were not airy. I could tell this right away without listening to all the others but listening to all the others confirmed it. It was still enjoyable though.

As soon as I changed to #3, these problems largely disappeared but bass wasn't totally tight. With the last three cables, I could not hear any differences between them. The lows were tight, mid-bass popped nicely and highs were airy without being bright. The last three cables sounded the best.

---------- Conclusions --------------

A. I could not hear differences between speaker cables.

B. I could hear differences between "Trevor's cables" and speaker cables. Trevor's cables may not be speaker cables.

C. All cables provided similar SPLs.

D. All cables were of similar, vanishingly low resistance.

E. Not all cables were the same capacitance.

F. Speaker cables were of lower capacitance.

G. Without developing a complete circuit model, trying to describe why I heard what I heard would be nothing more than speculation.

H. You do not need a "high resolution system" to hear differences in cables.

I. The M50v4 are fun!

I'll just add another thing in here. The M50v4 sound better uncorrected in my 4200 cu ft room than the M100v4. I can listen to the M50 in that room without correction and I can't say that about the M100. Ditto with the living room. Once corrected though, the M100 offers detail the M50 can't match. Some though may say that less detail is not a bad thing.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Mojo ... That was a very confusing write up ...
I think you said that the speaker cables (16 and 12 AWG) sounded better than the others ...
and of those (speaker cables) you heard no differences.

Guess the interesting data points were the other cables ...

Re: Deep Dive M5
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Sorry. Correct. I consider cables 4 to 6 to be speaker cables. I can't be sure about 1 to 3.

Does that clear it up?

Last edited by Mojo; 01/14/21 05:08 AM.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Very interesting and great writeup. The 3 bulk commercial box cables I sent are:

Red- Belden 18/4 securex Fire Alarm Cable made into 12/2 Licorice cable
White- Prima 16/4 Speaker Cable paired into 13/2
Gray- Belden 10/2 speaker wire from Blue Jeans Cable

I would like to hear what you think about a bi-wire setup with the gray on the woofer and white on the Mid-tweet on your M5HPs with jumper removed. That is how I’m running mine right now and liking it.

My takeaway was similar in the bass. The red cable was horrible. Honestly, I should try a single run of the red and see if it is better as 15/2 (18/4 paired down). But system sounds too good to muck with now. smile

So does this mean we are both crazy?! Or....

Re: Deep Dive M5
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That's really interesting that we both came up with the sort of the same thing. I expected to hear no difference and when I did, I thought oh shit how am I going to explain this? Then I realized I don't have to explain nuthin'. It just is...you know? smile

It looks like Axiom ripped me off. smile I only have one set of binding posts on the M5. I don't have multiple binding posts on anything...except the actives of course and I'm just not going there.

I suppose now we can start speculating about why the sound is the way it is. Is it cables, is it ears-brain or is it crappy speakers and amplifier? laugh


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Not the gear. It has to be us. The Horror!

Thanks for being open minded enough to test. I hope others read this and question the doctrine provided by other sites and forums. They may not always be all encompassing as they purport. In this case, Im beginning to think the pliability of the individual strands makes for a better termination with some cables vs others.

We see issues with terminations in the electrical industry using FLIR thermal image scans as part of service maintenance. On the speaker level of power, minor losses at terminations may be a bigger factor than what the cable actually is.... need to test.

Would be interesting to do the test again after doping the termination with conductive compound. Maybe I will mess with this in the future. I usually treat my cables and tighten with linesman pliers. May have made a difference. Not sure. I just did it to never have to mess with again. That red cable was plain awful. Maybe Ox-Guard would prove it is termination related.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Slimpikins gutted his Model T wiring and put in his own. He used the KnuConceptz I referenced above but 10 gauge. I use that on my actives. He soldered every connection. He swears they sound better.

I have to wonder if I could pick out differences amongst my three cables if I had a higher resolution set-up.


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Maybe. I should mention moving the speakers around so they coupled to the room better and adjusting toe in was a much bigger change. (Other than the Licorice cable)

These little M5HPs set up right in this room light up the bottom of my feet with pleasant pulses. But not boomy at all. When I head to the kitchen down the hall I think, “shoot that is loud, I sit in there?” But then back on the couch I think “Oh yeah! Im sittin here!” Dangerously good perhaps. Lol.

Did I mention I like ‘em? laugh

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You'd like them doubly more if you get another pair and stack them upside down on the current ones. smile


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Maybe.......

Want to tune the new subs in the basement first. Not shipped yet.

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Major renovation. Removed my front wall today.

Sonic Holography upgrade. More later.

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I want one. To cover my TV. smile


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Jeez those speaker shipping bags on cinderblocks are homely! lol.

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I actually kinda like them. With some acrylic paint, you can extend the cabinet to the floor and maybe add a driver to make them look even more beastly. smile


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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A wonderful thing happened tonight.

I have been messing around with this hobby for 15 years or so. The last 8 or so have been what I would consider seriously. Focusing on education, being methodical, and trying to be earnest and honest to myself with what I had, hoped for, and planned towards. My focus has always been about trying to make something “real” both in outcome and attainability. For a while I thought it has to be a certain speaker or new processor or Hi Res FLAC or...... In the early days I would read stereophile and sound and vision religiously and ponder on the methods they must use to get to where they are with their inspiring descriptions of almost unattainable perfection.

Textbooks, sawdust, more than a little time pouring over forum threads, being in other’s spaces, even taking a fool hardy run at building out spaces for people.... Every incremental step, sometimes backwards, towards something I hoped one day was “enough.”

Today it happened.

I have been messing around with these M5HPs in this room, and it got me to thinking where else can I go from here. I decided to take the old back wall diffusers out of the basement theater and give them a new look and purpose. We are looking to overhaul the HT this summer, and I’ve always wanted real wood diffusers on the back wall. They ended up getting a new paintjob and my wife helped me carefully apply the command strips and stick them to the wall -centered and nice and level. Perfect. They sure look great.

I listened all day pretty much, taking breaks to get a drink or make lunch. Occasionally I would get up to dab paint drips with paper towel from the ages old trim paint I used from the basement cupboard... (Note to self: old paint doesn’t cure quickly...)

I took a break from it to work in the basement, have supper, watch some TV and thought I should get back. Over the years I’ve asked my wife a hundred times to check out my latest tweak, or cool song, or bounce ideas about a new hair brained scheme off her. She is a great sport, and bless her, she has put up with a lot of “projects” over the years relating to my hobby.

Tonight I asked her to check out the new room with the diffuser installed. The look and feel of the space is great, and I was hoping she would like the sound. She said as usual “I have to sit there?” Referring to the sweet spot. “Ok, but you pick the song and just show me.” I threw on a track she frequents in her car and receded to the back of the room to let her listen. She grabbed the remote and inched up the volume. Head started bopping, feet keeping time. All good. Going well.

About three quarters of the way through the song she stopped bobbing along, but kept listening. By the end of the song she was still. I had expected she was over it and was ready to go on to other things. She paused spotify and I headed around the couch to see her. She was crying. Smiling and crying.

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Pretty good place to end my tale here. Until my next adventure worth sharing anyway. Cheers all.

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M5s come with crying and smiles. Active LFRs come with grunts, moans and sighs. smile


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Re: Deep Dive M5
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Finally got around to new stands. Ended up buying some and modifying to suit final speaker height of 16” to bottom from floor. I love this room and speakers. Even a year or so later. Too good! Too fun! Sound is incredible. Lots of demos in here for people. Easy to convey a proper stereo experience and possibilities with Axiom M5s. Definitely a “gateway drug” for unsuspecting listeners. Lol.

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Re: Deep Dive M5
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I've never been able to get used to the chair but I trust it sounds great! I like the wainscoting and the foamy.


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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 69
It comes alive at night and guards the speakers. Like Chairy out of peewee.

Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #445232 05/03/22 10:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490
Likes: 116
M
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
M
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490
Likes: 116
As long as Chairy doesn't tug its organ in public, I'm fine with it guarding the M5s.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #445236 05/04/22 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 775
Likes: 40
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 775
Likes: 40
Mojo that’s funny on a number of levels.

Mecca lecca hi mecca hi nee hoe!!


M60ti Hafler9505 & JFET Pre,Axiom Transformer. M3 Marantz PM7200 Dual 606 Denon 2700 M2 Yammy RX595
Re: Deep Dive M5
aaaaaaaaaaaaa #445237 05/04/22 04:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490
Likes: 116
M
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
M
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490
Likes: 116
That damned mecca lecca is stuck in my head now. Goes well with beer and bongs.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
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