Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Speakers Have Arrived (M60s vs. M22s)

Some might remember me from the "Having Second Thoughts" thread. If you recall, I was waffling between the M60s and the M22s. So, I decided to get both and see which one I liked better and whether the extra $ was worth it.

Well, they are both finally here. I have had the M22s for a couple weeks now, but have waited until the M60s arrived before I posted impressions.

First of all, I will preface by saying that my analysis is by no means scientific.....so I don't have to worry about 2X6 hunting me down like Galileo. OK...down to the good stuff:

1. My order - M22s, M60s, QS4s, VP150 (not arrived)- Factory Outlet

2. Transaction experience - The customer service was very helpful, responsive, and nice. This really came into play yesterday when I opened up my M60s, since one was black as requested and one was cherry. I gave them a call and they were very responsive....not without a bit of good humored joking about why my wife wouldn't want to have that modern look. The gentleman said that they would have another M60 shipped out on Monday, along w/ a return shipping tag for the cherry M60. He did however suggest that I take the cherry speaker out and listen to it until I get the new one....which I happily obliged.

3. Appearance - First of all, the M60's are Huge!!! I saw the dimensions, but they don't prepare you for how big they are in your environment.

Blemishes on M22s were negligible, as I expected. However, the blemishes on the one black M60 were a bit more than I had expected. There is a small mark on the front veneer, which is fine. But there is also a LARGE blemish running corner to corner on the top of the speaker. It almost looks like someone got the top wet, but didn't wipe it up for some time. But, in the end, I had to expect some kind of imperfections....I just wasn't expecting such a large one. On a positive note, the veneer is generally pleasing in appearance.

Listening

1. Source Material - Chuck Mangione, Ali Farke, Mickey Hart, Steely Dan, James Taylor, George Winston, Various Classical, Titanic Soundtrack (will explain), and more....

2. Clarity/Detail - Both speakers shine in terms of clarity/detail. When I first fired up the M22s, I was awestruck by this aspect. As many have described, I was hearing sounds that I have never before heard in different tracks. You almost visualize the vibrations of the string or what I would describe as mis-picks on a guitar. I could go on and on with the things I was now hearing. But, with this is the downside, which is hearing how poorly some audio tracks sound due to their original recording quality. You quickly find yourself migrating away from the Rock/POP to more classic rock/classical/easy listening, etc. In fact, if I were someone younger that listens to primarily hard rock or POP, I might think twice about Axioms because of this issue.

As far as comparisons go, I might have to give a nod to the M22s in terms of clarity. However, I have to believe that this is because of the lack of bass....ie, you peel away all that bass and some midrange power (smaller woofers) and you are left with that awesome clarity. In other words, I would think that they have the same level of clarity, but the M60s have much more bass and midrange accompanying those detailed highs. So, it's not as easy to focus in on that clarity w/ the M60s. I hope that makes sense.

3. Transparency - These speakers have helped me to understand this concept. With both speakers, I close my eyes and lose the speaker location. I only visualize the distinctly placed vocals and instruments, mostly centered in front of me. Those that were not are precisely located somewhere in the soundstage, even outside of the speaker stage.

4. Midrange - The M22 has stellar midrange performance. All it took was the Children of Sanchez lead track to nail this down for me. The horns are almost mind-bending. The M60's just take that same quality to the next level....same tight midrange, just louder and richer.

5. Bass - The M22s actually have a respectable bass performance. However, there is a huge gap there that requires the use of a subwoofer that does a lot to fill that low-end gap. The M60s are a whole different animal. I have read many posts where people have stated that a sub is still necessary w/ the M60s. I have to definitely disagree with that assessment. There is plenty of bass in these big boys. This was emphasized when the wife had the cd-selection helm and happened to put in the Titanic soundtrack. There is an incredible bass example on one of those tracks that literally shook the room. I had to check to make sure that the mains weren't set to small. The bass performance was excellent and tight. When I kicked the mains onto Large, my JBL PB10 sounded floppy and loose with the same track section. So, in the end, the M22s have respectable bass, but the M60's plenty under the hood to handle all music types.

Final Assessment:
Prior to having the M60's, I had found my new speakers. The clarity/detail/midrange/image of the M22s is amazing. If I were to have a better sub, this was the combination for me (completely blew my old Yamaha's out of the water). But, then the M60s showed up. It only takes a few minutes to realize that the M60's are a quantum leap in listening experience. They are the M22's with a much fuller/richer midrange and bass. I hate to burst the bubble of those on the fence, but this was even true when I switched the M22s to small and brought in the subwoofer. The M60s have just a more complete sound without the gaps that still exist there between the M22 mids and the sub. My only beef with the M60's was the fact that the highs & mids seem to have a bit of a "hall" sound to them....that's the best way I can describe what I heard. My wife picked it up as well when we put in George Winston (slow piano). It's not a deal-breaker, though.....it's partly why I gave the nod to the M22s on clarity.

In summary (longest post?), both of these speakers are outstanding (wicked pissa as twodan would say)....so much that we are considering keeping both, one for the basement home theater and one for the living room. You can't go wrong with either of them. If you have the money and the space, go for the M60s. If not, the M22s are definitely amazing.....Like I said, I was sold based upon their performance alone (before the M60's arrived).

If you've made it this far, then I hope you have gleaned something of value from my observations.

Ya know.....with all that babbling, I don't think that I ever did the most important thing:

Thanks for everyone's input to my earlier posts, as well as providing the general information and opinions on other people's posts that proved most helpful. This forum is by far the best one that I've dealt with....probably doesn't hurt that many of you have the same twisted sense of humor that I have.

Congratulations on the new speakers. And thanks for the great write up.

jr

PS We all understand on the omission. It's hard not to gush about these amazing speakers.

Great job! I have great respect for anyone who uses the language well.

When I was young, and my brain worked, I was quite articulate, and at times eloquent (he said modestly). Things have changed (old age; too much fun in the 1970s), and I find myself fishing for the right word, and struggling to write a logical, coherent paragraph. When young, it was, and still is, a great joy to hear someone articulate what I've felt, and have been unable to adequately express. Your "Final Assessment" paragraph did just that, although I've not experienced the "hall" sound you mention, and hope I don't.

I had the 22s for a week, and noticed what I felt were "gaps that...exist...between the M22 mids and the sub." That made me order the 60s, and VIOLA! The "more complete sound" of the 60s was quickly evident. I'd like to echo your advice to those on the fence. If space and budget constraints dictate choosing the 22s with a sub, don't hesitate. You will NOT be disappointed. It was with reluctance that I returned mine. But, if you can afford them, and they fit into your space, get the 60s.

Thanks for the excellent write up, Turbodog.

You're more eloquent than you think, Ajax.

Thanks for your kind words, Mike. It just seems to me that I've eroded (corroded?) a lot.

In reply to:

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First of all, I will preface by saying that my analysis is by no means scientific.....so I don't have to worry about 2X6 hunting me down like Galileo. OK...down to the good stuff:

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Hahahahaha!

Nice and informative review!

In reply to:

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First of all, I will preface by saying that my analysis is by no means scientific.....so I don't have to worry about 2X6 hunting me down like Galileo. OK...down to the good stuff:

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as long as you wernt wearing a white lab coat, and you had no sort of sound measuring device, i am sure things will be cool with 2x6.. oh yeah, you did bring your ears didnt you, cause thats important too..

smile, 2x6, there jokes!!

thanks for the review.. i think it was good, mine will be worse.. mine will be mainly a lot of OOOHHHH's, WOW's, and maybe a few 'F' words..

bigjohn

I think you have it backwards, DJ! Galileo was hounded by those who already "knew it all," and tolerated no differing viewpoint. Galileo trusted his "eyes," recounted the paths of the moons of Jupiter and was invited to participate in his own BBQ. Maybe Galileo would have laughed at those who claim to know it all, but Giordano Bruno's ashes were still warm and Galileo recanted.

BigJohn, no offense taken!

Nice comments. I ordered the M22s, had them for a week, and decided to trade up for the M60s. I also felt there is a missing link between the M22s and the subwoofer. I'm hoping for a more complete sound from the M60s. I certainly couldn't complain because the M22s provide exceptional detail and clarity. It is a fantastic speaker and I might just keep them and give them to my dad for fathers day. What the heck.

2x6, now you have it backwards. Galileo was going against the status quo by using science to point out the church had it wrong. The status quo in the audiophile domain is that different components/cables sound appreciably different, that break-in exists, etc. etc. etc...

So in this case, you're the church.

(I humbly apologize to the OP for letting this debate spill over into his post. )

Well, it appears that the status quo on this board is contra and that dissenting opinions are met with ecclesiastical harshness by those who know it all.

Well, as with all, and I do mean ALL, things in life: PERSPECTIVE DETERMINES REALITY!

That's one way to look at it.

Hehe, witty...

I try.

Not a single one of us has said we know it all. Please stop accusing us of that. All we have said, more or less, is that you cannot definitively say that Unit A sounds different/better/worse than Unit B without taking care to do the tests in a way that prevents the tester's bias from influencing the results -- that bias includes both your opposition's bias towards uniformity of sound AND your own bias towards non-uniformity.

That is all I would like you to acknowledge. Just say the word and this whole ordeal can go away.

That Ester, she's a biased one alright.

FREEEEDOOOM!


I was going to say, "There are ....four.... lights..." but I knew that wasn't right.

i don't know what you're talking about...

I think it's sad that I DO know what he's talking about.

Oh we *all* know what he's talking about...there's no denying it.

I also got M60ti 2 weeks ago. I agree with you that M60 has plenty of bass when listening to music. However, after keep turning power on and off on the sub, i get used to the way i listen to music with a sub. To me, M60 + Sub will give me full sound and i love it. I only turn off the sub when I listen to Jazz or pop.

enjoy music.

I am currently on the fence between M60 and M22 as well as Ascend and Dynaudio bookshelf spkrs. I listened to a lot of high end speakers and found that most towers tend to get muddled or boomy compared to a lot of bookshelf spkrs. I demoed these with jazz and acoustic CDs mostly to really be able to pinpoint the clarity factor.

Can anyone elaborate what the proper "space" is for the M60. I sit about 10 feet from the main speakers which are about 5 feet apart and 10" from the wall. In speaking with a guy at Axiom he strongly recommended the M60 but it is my understanding that these are much more position sensitive than a smaller speaker.

Craig, if you have the opportunity, the M60s might benefit from a bit more separation. Only 5 feet is like having one really long eyebrow. Also, they benefit from a little room from the back wall - seems like I remeber 18" - 24".

In reply to:

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I listened to a lot of high end speakers and found that most towers tend to get muddled or boomy compared to a lot of bookshelf spkrs.

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If you do a search, you'll probably find some posts I made stating that same exact thing. The M60ti's don't seem to suffer from that issue. I also found that they sounded a mite bit clearer when lifted off the ground a few inches.

The basic rule of thumb on placement is to try and set them as far apart as you'll be away from them in the "sweet spot". That being the case, 5' apart is really close together.

Spiff, what do you use to lift them off the ground a few inches?

Believe it or not they make tower speaker stands.

Before you buy stands though, you could use pretty much anything to get them off the ground and see if it sounds better to you.

The issue is the interaction with the floor. It tends to muddy up the mid-bass. The M60ti's are the clearest towers I've heard though. (well, for under $2500)

5 1/2 inches tall? that might work. one reason I got the M60s is because I wasn't comfortable with the M22s on a stand. We have three cats, one of them being a spritely 20 pounder who thinks he's Michael Jordan.

you mean you've not heard of "speaker lifters"? think they're available at auto parts stores next to the valve cover gaskets.

I've been sitting on the floor alot lately, playing with the baby. There is MUCH more bass present at that lower level. Maybe moving the speakers up just changes which drivers you predominately hear?

Also try standing on a chair so your ears are at or near the ceiling. Lotsa bass up there, too. I think bass, in general, has an affinity to flat surfaces.

Yeah, Mark, Peter's right. The standing waves which exist at various bass frequencies in a room according to length, width and height are at a maximum near the floor, ceiling and each wall. You might want to pass listening near the ceiling, but a similar effect exists when the couch is just a foot or so from the back wall, compared to a few feet further forward.

Eek! my poor little rug rat has been getting over-emphasized bass while he's crawling around on the floor? Does that mean he's going to grow up liking Rockets? or worse, Bose?
Actually, I sold my Bose Acousti-ass stuff at a garage sale for $50. You should have seen how excited the guy was at his find.
Of course, I had the receipt to show him that I paid $299 four years ago.

Pete - since reading your post, I've been wondering how many Axiomites you got up on chairs to put their ears on the ceiling last night. Then I began to imagine the spouse response to that spectacle. It was pretty much a self-contained hoot and I smiled at odd times today.

Ray

Misdirection is the best way to do it. Grab a paper towel first, then stand on the chair and pretent to capture a spider.