Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions LFR880 Questions

A few questions for anyone in the know.
1) Why does the frequency graph for the LFR880 look so much like the LFR660? The M80 graph is much flatter than the M60 in the high end, presumably because of the dual mid and tweeter.
2) The low end curve on the LFR880 doesn't look like it needs the HP addition, it's pretty smooth as-is. What am I missing?
3) And most important of all, do the omni's have a rear grill?

(I should have stopped considering these by now, but ... well you guys know how it goes.)

1. The 880 goes lower and you can see it in the graph by the slope below 50Hz. Above the low end, they do look very similar. I don't see the 880 graph being smoother than the 660 in the high end.

2. I've said it before. The HP driver is for those who want linearity when they drive their speakers hard on the low end. Axiom has never quantified what this means. From my listening, if you want linearity below 80Hz at 100 dB SPL at 14 feet, get HP drivers. Or even better, get a sub or four.

BTW, those curves you see, that's at about 1 Watt input. What we really need to see is the HP and non-HP graphs at various higher power levels so we can compare.

3. Yes, they do.

Thanks Mojo, I see how the 880 goes lower (which itself is weird, as it has the same 2 woofers), but I find it strange that the mid and high end doesn't behave like the M80, given the extra front-facing mid and tweeter.

And compared to the M80, the 880 low-end curve is extremely smooth, so I'm starting to wonder if they didn't show the HP curve.

For the first time I'm starting to feel the effects of an internet direct speaker company. Up to now I've only purchased bookshelves. I had no problem trying out one of those and sending it back if it didn't meet expectations. But shipping back towers, and especially towers with and amp and a DSP seems over the top (and probably expensive). It would really be nice about now to pop in and have a nice chat with a friendly dealer while he demos the two. Sigh.

Sorry, just a bout of nostalgia; I'm better now.

It feels strange because the 880 and the 80 look like the same speaker but they are not. Remember that the 80 is passive while the 880 is partially active. And it has rear drivers. Using the DSP, Axiom was not only able to combine the radiation patterns of the front and rear driver arrays to lend to a smoother sound power response, it was also able to correct for resonances to some extent down low.

That curve down low has nothing to do with the HP driver. The HP driver only matters when you start pushing the speaker into higher SPLs like I described previously.

If I had to choose between the 880 and 660, knowing what I know now, I'd choose the 660. I say that because in my 4200 cu ft room, I can play the M5s as loud as I need to with a sub and no distortion. The 660 will play much louder before distortion kicks in.

I know I sound like a wise guy when I say this but I'd bet you would not return the 660s. They will sound very good!

Intellectually I know that the 660 is good enough, but after all those years envisioning an M80 I know that it'll eat away at me getting a tower that doesn't look like an M80. Yes I know that's juvenile, but you don't know hard I had to work all those many years to wear my wife down to redo the living room to allow space for the towers. So when I realized that about myself and started comparing the curves I was surprised they looked so alike.

"That curve down low has nothing to do with the HP driver. The HP driver only matters when you start pushing the speaker into higher SPLs like I described previously"
In one of the early threads on the HPs Ian says, "The advantage to the High Power versions is ... and the linearity of the bass down to 30 Hz. I took that last part to mean the HPs softened that plateau you see in the M80.

Truth be told I'll probably wind up with the M80, but I have some time to fantasize before I pull the trigger.

Ian is talking about linearity down low at higher SPLs. And if you are crossing to subs, there's less reason to consider HP.

I'd do 660 and forget M80s.

Thanks Mojo. I won't be using a sub for this room; but I agree, if I were I wouldn't even be considering it.

Second 660.

Cork, you have 2500 sq ft to fill and it's open to that much more. No sub means you need linearity down low so you don't get booming or nulls. You also need to get down to 30Hz or so to cover the jazz, classical and classic rock. So let's look at the options carefully.

The only traditional Axiom speakers that will get down that low with some room gain are the M50, M5, M60, M80 and M100. The M80 and M100 reach a little lower than all others.

The M50 has no mid-woofer and that makes the mids sound less detailed. But they are very enjoyable. What makes them terrific is they can be dropped in any room and there's no booming - but the nice bass is there! The bass is very linear and they go loud. If I couldn't use a sub or EQ, I'd take the M50 over all others except the M60.

The M5 gives you the detail the M50 is missing. But they're not as linear as the M50 down low. They boom in my living room and still need EQ in my main room. They may work in your room with careful placement and maybe port plugs and EQ. I say maybe to port plugs because I find the port plugs affect mids in a not good way. Maybe though you won't object to them. And they're not the floor-standers you worked so hard for.

I haven't heard the M60. But it looks as linear as the M50 and it has a dedicated mid-woofer to boot. I bet it can be dropped in any room and it will sound very nice.

The M80 is a bit of a curvy ride down there. It's a crap shoot what that will sound like in your room.

The M100 is better. In a room that size, and a 14 foot MLP, the 100 is a good fit. You may have to experiment with port plugs and placement to get nice bass. I admit I could not get nice bass out of the M100s in my 1900 cu ft living room or 4200 cu ft main room. I had to use Audyssey XT32. They sound much better in my buddy's 6500 cu ft space.

That brings us to actives. The 880 will get you down that low better than the 660. And it appears all the linearity challenges Axiom has with the 80 were erased with the DSP. Awesome! But the 660 is close and with room gain, it may turn out to be more linear than the 880. This is why I would choose the 660 over the 880.

Now I'll also tell you this and it may or may not be a big factor for you. For me, it's a big deal! The M2, M3, M5, M50 acoustically disappear. I could not get the M80 or M100 to do that. Maybe if you're seating in the near-field and they're 12 feet apart (like CanesinVirginia) they disappear. Maybe at your 8 feet apart and 14 foot diffuse field MLP they'll disappear. I don't know. Why don't the M80 and M100 disappear as well? Because multiple mids and tweeters are difficult to perfectly integrate. But they'll go louder with less distortion. There are trade-offs.

If I had to go passives, I'd go M60. I'd get linear bass, wonderful fidelity across the board and I bet they disappear, due to a single mid and tweeter, leaving me with just soundstage and images.

If you don't want trade-offs, the active LFR1100 has totally linear bass right down to 28Hz in room, and completely disappears and has deep, wide soundstage with the best imaging. You get what you pay for.

As always, that was very interesting Mojo, thank you. I'll be re-reading that a few more times I'm sure.

One of the main reason I built up the M80 in my head is that while I love the Axiom sound, I find their high-end a little lacking. My surrounds on my music system are old Advent minis and they're only a couple of feet away from my head. I tend to play my music in all-channel stereo, but I often play around with different sound programs including plain old stereo. When I go from all-channel to stereo I really feel the loss of the high-end. (I usually use Ray Charles's 'What'd I Say' for this experiment because of the very distinct cymbals) So I'm kid of hoping the dual mids and tweeters of the M80 (or LFR880) give the high end more prominence, or at least allow me to tune that way more readily. Please let me know if I'm smoking something on that count.

Maybe the best thing I can add to highlight my sound preference is that so far my favorite Axiom speaker is an older M22v2 that I set up out on my porch. (I think that's right in line with your admiration of the M2 by the way.) There's no boundary behind them, and no subwoofer, and I think the sound is perfect.

And Trevor, thanks for chiming in, there seem to be a lot of votes for the 660!