Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions LFR880 Questions

A few questions for anyone in the know.
1) Why does the frequency graph for the LFR880 look so much like the LFR660? The M80 graph is much flatter than the M60 in the high end, presumably because of the dual mid and tweeter.
2) The low end curve on the LFR880 doesn't look like it needs the HP addition, it's pretty smooth as-is. What am I missing?
3) And most important of all, do the omni's have a rear grill?

(I should have stopped considering these by now, but ... well you guys know how it goes.)

1. The 880 goes lower and you can see it in the graph by the slope below 50Hz. Above the low end, they do look very similar. I don't see the 880 graph being smoother than the 660 in the high end.

2. I've said it before. The HP driver is for those who want linearity when they drive their speakers hard on the low end. Axiom has never quantified what this means. From my listening, if you want linearity below 80Hz at 100 dB SPL at 14 feet, get HP drivers. Or even better, get a sub or four.

BTW, those curves you see, that's at about 1 Watt input. What we really need to see is the HP and non-HP graphs at various higher power levels so we can compare.

3. Yes, they do.

Thanks Mojo, I see how the 880 goes lower (which itself is weird, as it has the same 2 woofers), but I find it strange that the mid and high end doesn't behave like the M80, given the extra front-facing mid and tweeter.

And compared to the M80, the 880 low-end curve is extremely smooth, so I'm starting to wonder if they didn't show the HP curve.

For the first time I'm starting to feel the effects of an internet direct speaker company. Up to now I've only purchased bookshelves. I had no problem trying out one of those and sending it back if it didn't meet expectations. But shipping back towers, and especially towers with and amp and a DSP seems over the top (and probably expensive). It would really be nice about now to pop in and have a nice chat with a friendly dealer while he demos the two. Sigh.

Sorry, just a bout of nostalgia; I'm better now.

It feels strange because the 880 and the 80 look like the same speaker but they are not. Remember that the 80 is passive while the 880 is partially active. And it has rear drivers. Using the DSP, Axiom was not only able to combine the radiation patterns of the front and rear driver arrays to lend to a smoother sound power response, it was also able to correct for resonances to some extent down low.

That curve down low has nothing to do with the HP driver. The HP driver only matters when you start pushing the speaker into higher SPLs like I described previously.

If I had to choose between the 880 and 660, knowing what I know now, I'd choose the 660. I say that because in my 4200 cu ft room, I can play the M5s as loud as I need to with a sub and no distortion. The 660 will play much louder before distortion kicks in.

I know I sound like a wise guy when I say this but I'd bet you would not return the 660s. They will sound very good!

Intellectually I know that the 660 is good enough, but after all those years envisioning an M80 I know that it'll eat away at me getting a tower that doesn't look like an M80. Yes I know that's juvenile, but you don't know hard I had to work all those many years to wear my wife down to redo the living room to allow space for the towers. So when I realized that about myself and started comparing the curves I was surprised they looked so alike.

"That curve down low has nothing to do with the HP driver. The HP driver only matters when you start pushing the speaker into higher SPLs like I described previously"
In one of the early threads on the HPs Ian says, "The advantage to the High Power versions is ... and the linearity of the bass down to 30 Hz. I took that last part to mean the HPs softened that plateau you see in the M80.

Truth be told I'll probably wind up with the M80, but I have some time to fantasize before I pull the trigger.

Ian is talking about linearity down low at higher SPLs. And if you are crossing to subs, there's less reason to consider HP.

I'd do 660 and forget M80s.

Thanks Mojo. I won't be using a sub for this room; but I agree, if I were I wouldn't even be considering it.

Second 660.

Cork, you have 2500 sq ft to fill and it's open to that much more. No sub means you need linearity down low so you don't get booming or nulls. You also need to get down to 30Hz or so to cover the jazz, classical and classic rock. So let's look at the options carefully.

The only traditional Axiom speakers that will get down that low with some room gain are the M50, M5, M60, M80 and M100. The M80 and M100 reach a little lower than all others.

The M50 has no mid-woofer and that makes the mids sound less detailed. But they are very enjoyable. What makes them terrific is they can be dropped in any room and there's no booming - but the nice bass is there! The bass is very linear and they go loud. If I couldn't use a sub or EQ, I'd take the M50 over all others except the M60.

The M5 gives you the detail the M50 is missing. But they're not as linear as the M50 down low. They boom in my living room and still need EQ in my main room. They may work in your room with careful placement and maybe port plugs and EQ. I say maybe to port plugs because I find the port plugs affect mids in a not good way. Maybe though you won't object to them. And they're not the floor-standers you worked so hard for.

I haven't heard the M60. But it looks as linear as the M50 and it has a dedicated mid-woofer to boot. I bet it can be dropped in any room and it will sound very nice.

The M80 is a bit of a curvy ride down there. It's a crap shoot what that will sound like in your room.

The M100 is better. In a room that size, and a 14 foot MLP, the 100 is a good fit. You may have to experiment with port plugs and placement to get nice bass. I admit I could not get nice bass out of the M100s in my 1900 cu ft living room or 4200 cu ft main room. I had to use Audyssey XT32. They sound much better in my buddy's 6500 cu ft space.

That brings us to actives. The 880 will get you down that low better than the 660. And it appears all the linearity challenges Axiom has with the 80 were erased with the DSP. Awesome! But the 660 is close and with room gain, it may turn out to be more linear than the 880. This is why I would choose the 660 over the 880.

Now I'll also tell you this and it may or may not be a big factor for you. For me, it's a big deal! The M2, M3, M5, M50 acoustically disappear. I could not get the M80 or M100 to do that. Maybe if you're seating in the near-field and they're 12 feet apart (like CanesinVirginia) they disappear. Maybe at your 8 feet apart and 14 foot diffuse field MLP they'll disappear. I don't know. Why don't the M80 and M100 disappear as well? Because multiple mids and tweeters are difficult to perfectly integrate. But they'll go louder with less distortion. There are trade-offs.

If I had to go passives, I'd go M60. I'd get linear bass, wonderful fidelity across the board and I bet they disappear, due to a single mid and tweeter, leaving me with just soundstage and images.

If you don't want trade-offs, the active LFR1100 has totally linear bass right down to 28Hz in room, and completely disappears and has deep, wide soundstage with the best imaging. You get what you pay for.

As always, that was very interesting Mojo, thank you. I'll be re-reading that a few more times I'm sure.

One of the main reason I built up the M80 in my head is that while I love the Axiom sound, I find their high-end a little lacking. My surrounds on my music system are old Advent minis and they're only a couple of feet away from my head. I tend to play my music in all-channel stereo, but I often play around with different sound programs including plain old stereo. When I go from all-channel to stereo I really feel the loss of the high-end. (I usually use Ray Charles's 'What'd I Say' for this experiment because of the very distinct cymbals) So I'm kid of hoping the dual mids and tweeters of the M80 (or LFR880) give the high end more prominence, or at least allow me to tune that way more readily. Please let me know if I'm smoking something on that count.

Maybe the best thing I can add to highlight my sound preference is that so far my favorite Axiom speaker is an older M22v2 that I set up out on my porch. (I think that's right in line with your admiration of the M2 by the way.) There's no boundary behind them, and no subwoofer, and I think the sound is perfect.

And Trevor, thanks for chiming in, there seem to be a lot of votes for the 660!

Before my v4 system, I was using the M80, 150 and QS8 v2. The high end on that system was brittle and sounded harsh. V4 is a different ballgame. It's very airy, light and dispersive. It can also go louder than the v2 before breaking up. Mostly the difference is in the v4 tweeter with its slight tapered horn, longer throw and die cast aluminum faceplate.

Having said that, there are two people I know of on this board who prefer the v2 tweeter over the v4. One likes his M22v2 better than the v4. The other may start coming around to the v4 sound.

The v4 sound is seductive and very balanced right across the whole audio range.

The only thing dual mids and dual tweeters will do is allow the speakers to go louder with less distortion - and maybe disappear less better. I really don't think you need any louder than M60 or 660.

That's a great tune. I'm listening to the re-mastered version on the M5OW in my living room and the air around the cymbals is very nice! No EQ whatsoever. Such air didn't exist on v2. It was more grainy.

https://open.spotify.com/track/6RvJigkrHaxStGN2shMJ7h?si=vlQdtNFnTqe1btMlbs3RdA

I just listened to that tune on my actives. The highs sound the same. The image of the cymbals is deeper into the soundstage and tighter though.

Man, you're making it much harder to do the wrong thing just because!
Seriously though, thanks for all the info.

Cork,

Isn't it great having so many choices?

Jeff

Jeff_in_the_D - it's killin' me!

The problem is, if you get the 60s, you'll be wondering what you're missing not having 660s. But if you get the 660s, you'll be wondering just how much better they are than the 60s. So you really ought to get both to compare.

Cork,
If I hadn’t already researched and purchased floor standers for my 2 channel living room system I would have seriously considered the LFR 660 or 880s. The 1100 are just too much for my space. The active version designs are such an attractive alternative to passive designs! They have piqued my interest for sure.
Little or no opportunity to hear and compare is very unfortunate though.
Not sure I’m brave enough to take that leap.
I have wanted to drive up to Dwight at some point. Perhaps when the current situation subsides it will be possible to make it up there. Beautiful locale in Ontario.
Good luck with your dilemma!

Jeff

>> So you really ought to get both to compare.
I've been seriously thinking about it!

>> I have wanted to drive up to Dwight at some point.
Funny you mentioned that, I was just looking it up on Google maps this morning. Roughly 10 hrs direct; but 6+6 if I stop and see my son in Rochester. Very doable as soon as they'll let us in again.

I know I'm making more of this than there needs to be, but I'm not in a hurray and I'm having fun. The sample should arrive in a day or two (they would have been here today, but we got a boatload of snow dropped on us); so that'll amp up the anticipation and fun factor even more.

Awesome! That’s the right way to do it!

When we were last at the factory about 4 years back, we had the chance to listen to the LFRs in the Axiom A/B testing room with non-LFR versions. At the time I was also considering swapping out our M60s at that point for newer versions and wood veneer but since the LFRs came out, we thought, maybe we could swap the M60s for the LFR versions.

Simple consideration for size; do NOT buy a speaker that is bigger for the room than what is needed. A person may be drawn to the general bigger is better trap, but when it comes to sound, you will find it VERY hard to place a large speaker in a small or not adequate space. Our HT room is a very near example of this. I cannot quite get as broad a sweet spot as i would like with the M60s because we sit 11 feet from them. I need about another 2 feet to get that broader sweet spot.
Now if i had M22s, it would be easier to move those around. M80s are completely out of the question because the placement wouldn't be any different than for the M60s and given the room volume, i don't need the extra output.

The point of looking at the LFRs was because of the way they diffuse sound more. Yes if i figured i was certain this could make audio nirvana i would consider it more but the cost is a bit prohibitive for the gains that i expect it could bring. For me i just don't feel it's worth that extra cost, but if i were just buying Axioms today, i'd probably go for the LFRs in that room.

If i can find the thread from 4 years back where i presented my thoughts on the LFRs i'll post it here (unless Mojo finds it first).

Lol. You're bang on, Chess regarding speaker size vs. room size.

I'll just say again I saw a big benefit going from M100v4 to active omnis. As for passive omnis, I can't really draw a comparison because I've never heard them.

Chess, how big is your room volume? Dimensions?.....that your m60s are in now?

13.5 w x 16 L x 7 H

I was starting to worry about the M80 being too big too, so I called Axiom and talked to J.C. He said given the size of my room I could definitely go bigger than M60s. I'm not sure I mentioned my sitting 13' away. I'm still a little nervous about the M80 though, but that's countered by my always wanting a pair. Your experience chesseroo swings it back a little. If you find your post I'd definitely be interested; I'll be poking around too.

Given the feedback I've started to swing to the LFR660's again. (There's about 8 swings remaining!) I'm just not crazy about double the cost. And the set-up: I already have wires running for a standard pair, but I'd have to run two more lines and set up the amp 6 feet away from my receiver and run those wires for the omnis. Not only am I very lazy, but I can't be crawling around on the floor and in the basement right now. So I'd have to tell my wife that I'm just setting the amp up in the living room "for a bit to test them out", and see how long I could get away with that. Also, she wants to get a cat, which I've been fending off; but if there's an amp in the living room I'll be helping to name a new friend.

60 or 660 all the way! I know psychologically your mind tricks you into believing bigger has got to be better but it's simply not an absolute. You are more likely to get better imaging, soundstage and bass from the M60 compared to the M80. And the 60 will likely disappear better.

The 660 will provide a wider and deeper soundstage with improved imaging and dynamics at louder volumes. And it might also disappear better than the 60. I say might because my M50s disappear just great and I expect the 60 to do the same.

My buddy loves the M100s he stole from me. He fell in love with them in the first 10 seconds of listening. The character of the sound is more important to him than acoustic disappearance. In typical rooms, even though the M100s are bigger and more expensive, they suffer more from "position error" than M50, M5, M3, and M2 and their bass is not as linear. So although the M100s sound more like instruments compared to the M5, I like the M5 more because of their imaging, soundstage and disappearing act.

I went with active omnis so I can have it all. And now I have even better fidelity, imaging, soundstage and disappearing than M100 or M5.

Cork, I was very happy with M5s, and I would have been happy with M2s in my 4200 cu ft space, but I went down a deep, dark chasm!

I agree with Mojo.
Haven't heard the 60 or the 660 but if the M2, M3, M22, and M5 are any indication you will be fine. These smaller speakers sound great and fill a much larger space than their size would indicate. One more consideration, if this is a home theater, is that a smaller speaker is easier to fit into a space than a taller one especially if you ever decide on getting a really big screen.

As posted 13.5 w x 16 L x 7 H in feet so the volume works out to about 1500 cubic feet. I have had them up in our main floor living room though off the side of our open floor plan kitchen. That room is about 18x 15 x 10 so 2700 cubic feet not including into the dining and kitchen areas or it would be well over 5000 cubic feet.
It has been awhile since i had the M60s on the main floor for a listen, but i do recall that they were bright (the room has a lot of hard surfaces though) but the stereo imaging was much better. We sit about 13 feet from the system again on the short axis of the rectangular room.
I may for kicks bring them back upstairs to test them out for sound as a refresher.

Here is the link to my short review. It was back in 2017.
https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/u...g-session-with-the-lfr-660s-brief-review

Re: the LFR setup, as you can see/read, we never pulled the trigger on the LFRs. Per my review, there were a couple of things that held us back. First is cost. Is that additional cost worth the sonic benefit?
This is a personal question only answered by oneself and one's glaring spouse.

Second, the setup takes much more space. We just bought a new media console and i'm pretty certain it wouldn't have enough space for the extra amps and DSP required along with what we have there already. As it is, i'm looking for a new pre-pro and amp for the main floor as well and a new AVR for the media room. If i spent more $$ on electronics than a new car in a year, i'm not sure i could live with myself. Then there's more cables but that's relatively minor compared to having to add in all the extra electronics somewhere.

Chess, if your M60s are v2 or ti, maybe that's part of the reason for the perceived brightness.

I have the resistor installed which lowers the spl of the tweeter slightly.

Even the big Tannoys i have up there can sound 'loud'. The room is very reflective.

Damn Chess. You gotta trade those abominations in. My M80s sounded harsh in my living room. When I got my v4, I A/B'd them. The harshness was gone.

Chesseroo, that was an awesome review! Not so different that Mojo's summaries, but with a lot of detail that hit home. And my reasons for hesitating on the LFRs mirror yours.

rrlev, these are for a music-only stereo, no sub, set-up. And you're right, I really could go with small, even bookshelves, in this room (with a sub), but my wife doesn't want bookshelves or a sub; which fits in well with my always wanting the M80s.

You guys brought me to the edge of a believer, but the thing is, I love that M80 curve. I know you can't "hear" a curve, but it represents what I'm hoping for: flat, no drop off at the high end (I *like* bright, my M22v2's were awesome and better for me than the M22v4's) and slightly lower at the very the low end (I'm not into too much low-end for music; movies, yeah, go ahead and rattle my foundation). All Axioms speakers fade at the high end (except the M2, M22, and M5, but the M5 has that bass bump). I just re-read this paragraph and it sounds like I don't like Axiom speakers; but of course, I do! I'm just trying for that slight tweak in the upper register.

What you guys did convince me of is - I really need to hear both. I'm going to see if Axiom will let me order both and send back the one I like less. If I feel them frown over the phone, I ... don't know what I'll do. Probably go with the 660 as I think I know what to expect with the M80.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I have ruled out the LFR880. At this point ruling a speaker out is a win!

For once, I will refrain from responding. Oh damn! I did it again.

Mojo, if you ever stop responding they'll be emergency vehicles at your doorstep.

While I'm here, does anyone remember if Axiom have a yearly sale anytime between now and May-ish?

. Yes, sometime around April or May.