Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Weaiting. And waiting. FedEx sucks!

So my LFR660s shipped on the 20th. I got one speaker on the 26th. One! And one speaker on the 27th.
There's *no* status on the DSP. And the amp is customs purgatory. It is extremely frustrating to have speakers sitting in the living room and not be able to use them.
To make it worse, we have a bee colony between our living room wall and the chimney, and the bee guy is coming next week and will be opening the ceiling near where the speaker would be. So if I don't get to play this weekend the speakers will be sitting there until next weekend. ARGHHH !
That's for reading my rant.

This, coupled with my poetry, may just send you over the edge.

I hear your pain Cork, been there done that! It's the worst! Make sure you look over the boxes before accepting delivery, the longer it stay's in Fedex's hands the more likely you'll see damage.

UPS is worse. They leave stuff on your doorstep, no doorbell ring, no call or email, rain or shine. Nothing like having a $800 monitor being soaked all day that you didn't know was arriving.

Ups is great if you work at home and have a front porch. The text/email works for me. It pops up on the screen, you open the front door and it’s there.

UPS is better in my area, but I think it's pretty much luck of the draw on that count. UPS at least brings the package up to my garage door, and usually under my porch. FedEx usually leave it out on the street; like this time where I had a large tower sitting out on the curb while I was at work. Fortunately my wife came home and brought it in.

FedEx has given me more trouble then any other shipper

Can't say i've had more than packet sized Fedex parcels. Not as popular here for shipping. I really hate the UPS customs charges. I much prefer USPS (to Canada) if the parcel size fits the limits.

Having a Ring or Nest doorbell really helps too.

So all the components finally came and I had a chance to compare the M80s to the LFR660s, and ... I liked the M80s better. I'm as surprised as you are.

It wasn't hands down; I'd say about 40% of the music I used for the comparison sounded better on the LFRs. (I used old/new recordings, a mix of rock/blues/jazz/classical, and a mix of acoustic/vocal.)
I'd say the imaging on the LFRs was better across the board, but I found that that aspect didn't matter to me that much. Another significant difference to me was that on the M80 the music generally appeared to come from the speaker, whereas on the LFRs it came from a right/left column (horizontal separation was pretty close between them), and I definitely liked the LFR vertical presentation better. On the other hand the M80s sounded more punchy/dynamic. (I did adjust for volume, but not using a meter.) But what really swung it for me is that the songs that that I really enjoyed, the ones that put a smile on my face, were on the M80.

Maybe the problem was that I really should have been comparing M80s to the LFR880 or M60s and LFR660; but there you have it.

Another interesting tidbit was that my wife liked the M80s better too (in more-or-less blind test; I didn't tell her anything and she kept her eyes closed). After her selection I filled her in and she posited that our older ears are losing the highs and the M80 compensated for that more. It makes some sense.

And in passing I'll add that the M8- sounded much better with the ADA1000 than using my 10 year old (8 ohm) Onkyo. Shocker, right?.

Great honest feedback. Run them both in for a while before you decide.

The more Axioms I meet the more it is readily apparent they need a little time to do their best.

Either way you should have an outstanding house full of sound on your hands!

Very unexpected and interesting. I wonder why. The extra mid-woofer maybe?

You know, I kind of forgot about burn-in. I've never been a proponent, but I'm also not convinced one way or the other. How long would you say is necessary?
I've had the M80s going for about 12-14 hours' the LFRs about 8.

It's not speaker burn in, it's your reference sound burned in your brain that sets the bar for what you think/know as good sound. When you hear something different, the brain balks and asks itself "is this better? Could it even be?".
The first time anyone gets a new speaker you have a bias even though you may consciously know about it, but ultimately your reference sound starts with what you have known for a long time, the M80 sound. Take your time flipping between the two sets for a couple of weeks and try out different music as well.

Obviously one observation you have is in the apple to orange comparsion (660 vs 80). Yes the LFR880 would have been the best most equivalent unit to compare. The different driver configuration and tower size between the 60 and 80s makes a difference and so does the LFR aspect. You have TWO major variables to adjust for rather than just one.

I observed the same thing you mentioned re: the soundstage. With the LFR i noticed that the sound was more dispersed and less directional or at least less noticeably directional. The effect was more subtle than i expected and i also came to the same thought as you did; does this matter to me? or is this too subtle for me to think it makes enough of a strong positive change to make it worthwhile?
Given its price, i backed away, but if i had the LFR for an extended period to hear in comparison, it's possible i may come to a different conclusion (my listening experience happened at the Axiom factory so over a very short period of less than 1 hour).

I expected the 660 to triumph. Assuming the algorithm for deriving the listening window and sound power is the same for 80 and 660, I can't see how the 80 can sound better given the more linear behavior of the 660. I will say that positioning matters a lot. Maybe the algo is not the same and that means we can't directly compare the curves of the two.

My active LFRs blow the M100v4 away in absolutely every category. But I had to fiddle with positioning for months to achieve Nirvana. I know Alan admonishes me when I say "blows away" but it really doesn't take an audiophile to hear the difference between the two.

This kind of "reference burn-in" makes perfect sense, and in fact it occurred to me when I was listening. Worse for a comparison, it's a significant improvement on the kind of response I've been listening to for 50 years so really want that improvement.


This also makes a lot of sense. Truth is, when I started less than 40% of the samples sounded better on the LFRs. So over the roughly 12 hours time the LDRs gained ground. But, it's the "smile score" that will probably keep me from continuing the comparison for very much longer. That and the fact that because I know I'm returning one set I've been treating them with kid gloves and I'd like to stop doing that and set them up permanently.


Looking at he published curves, I wouldn't say that the LFRs are more linear (by the usual audio use of the word, and in the listening window), I'd say they have better room resonance response.

I didn't play with positioning much, and I feel bad about that, but like I said above, after all this time I'd really like to move into the enjoying phase! (Also, I used up the 30 days review time on the M80 already because I asked for them to be shipped early when there was a chip delay. I suppose I could ask Axiom for more time; but again, I'm getting impatient.)

As far as the single positioning though, the LFRs had the primo spot being positioned precisely 12 inches from the back wall and away from the side wall. The M80s were then placed next to the the LFRs; one M80 had no rear wall; or rather, it had an additional 6 feet, into the hallway.

I'm definitely not pretending I'm making an audiophile choice; this is pure and simply which one I like more.

I've linked below the listening window and sound power for the 660 and 80. There are a few interesting things going on when comparing the two.

First, notice the swings in response of the 80 below 150Hz. Certainly the 80 is not as linear within its posted frequency response range as the 660. I really think Axiom had trouble with the 80 in this range.

Note how the 660 response smoothly drops below 65Hz. This is completely intentional. The intent is for the room to take over and boost the gain below 65Hz.

Then look at how the listening window and sound power response of the 660 smoothly declines with rising frequency. This is again intentional and prevents the 660 from sounding harsh in a room.

The Family of Curves theory says that the 660 ought to sound better than the 80. Certainly that's what I hear in my rooms when I compared the various passives and the active LFR1100.

Of course I agree that since the 80s sound better, that is what Cork should hang on to.

I neglected to mention the closeness of the listening window and sound power curves on the 660 relative to the 80. This closeness leads to improved imaging in a room. Those two curves are on top of each other for the active LFR1100.

The reason I said the M80 looked flatter is the high-end portion of the curve, where the M80 stays at ~87 db and the LFR660 drops to ~82 db. Also, what I don't think I mentioned in this thread is that I got the HP woofers on the M80 (not available for the LFR660) which Axiom says flattens out the lower end. Axiom doesn't have curves for the HP versions, so I made some assumptions there. The LW/SP curves are what I meant by "room resonance", and there the LFRs clearly have the edge.
Don't get me wrong, I like the LFR600; but to my graph-eyes, with some hand waving to fill in the blanks, the M80HP is flatter.

The more I think about it the more I think it was unreasonable to compare across the base lines. I'm thinking the performance of the larger speaker is washing out the improvement of the LFRs. (And the lower-end LFRs don't have quite the same advantage as the upper-end LFRs on the LW/SP curves anyway.) I should have sucked it up and got the LFR880s. (Which is now on my radar as soon as my wife gets over the actual size of the M80s in the living room.)

Ahhhhhh yes. The HP woofers. That makes sense; particularly at higher volumes and dynamics.

The M80 is indeed flatter over-all above the bass region. All the passive Axioms are designed with a flat listening window. In some rooms - like yours - flat sounds great. This flatness is a generally accepted standard in the industry. I'm seeing a trend in the industry though towards the declining response even for passive speakers.

It's interesting to note that while LFRs have a declining response, the active Bryston Model Ts have a flat response. I suppose this is one way of differentiating the Bryston active line from Axiom's.

Is the 880 available in an HP version?

It lists an 880 in a HP version but I don't see the option on the website to order them. May have to call to get that option.

I wonder if the 880HP uses different DSP firmware than the 880.

I would think so given the difference in the drivers but that's just speculation.

I was just talking to Axiom and asked about the HP on the LFRs and she said that it is available; but you have to ask, it's not available via a web order.

Good info. The crossover on the 80HP is the same as on the 80. I'd expect the same on the 880. I think the DSP is used to control the relative magnitude of mid-range frequencies between the front and rear drivers so I'd expect the DSP firmware to be the same.