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Dedicated Line for Amp?
#442859 07/19/21 02:39 PM
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I decided my body was too creaky to run speaker wires in my crawlspace and got an electrician in to run them. Seem wasteful to have him come over just for speaker wires so I asked him to put a separate line for the ADA1000. (I know that's small for most of you, but it's huge for me.) I left him alone and instead of the separate line he tapped into another line. Kind of annoyed, but he said it would be fine. So what do you guys think, is it worth having a separate line for an amp (and the pre-amp)?

While I'm typing, has anyone been able to get a hold of Axiom in the last week? I've not been able to get anyone on the phone at all. My LFR660 RMA hasn't gone through and it's been 12 calendar days since they received the last item. Not only would I really like to not have to shell out for the next credit card payment, but I'll admit I'm getting a little nervous. Does Canada take off in July?

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442860 07/19/21 02:41 PM
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My understanding is a lot of things are closed down or partially open in Canada right now due to Covid.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442861 07/19/21 03:05 PM
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What's on the other line?


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442866 07/19/21 07:20 PM
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Just the clothes dryer, I think. Which, come to think of it, probably wouldn't be running when I'm listening to music.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442867 07/19/21 08:48 PM
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You have a 120V dryer?


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442868 07/19/21 09:05 PM
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I hope he didn't wire that in with the dryer.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442869 07/19/21 09:27 PM
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If he did, when you plug in the ADA, it will morph into a plasma conduit.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442870 07/19/21 10:17 PM
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I put in a dedicated 20 amp line for audio only. 2 PS Audio outlets, 4 Acme cryo treated silver outlets. I use an IsoTek Aquarius conditioner and an IsoTek Evo3 Sirius strip and 6 IsoTek Evo3 Optimum power cords.

Sounds a bit better, I think.

This is what Neil Grader from Absolute Sound said:

Enter the IsoTek EVO3 Aquarius, a more affordable version in the EVO3 series from this British-based company. The rack-width steel-and-aluminum chassis houses six outlets—two high-current outlets, rated at 16A, suitable for power amplifiers, active loudspeakers, or subwoofers, and four medium-current outlets. Aquarius benefits from much of the innovation and technology of the uptown Nova and Sigma conditioners in two unique areas. Primary is KERP (Kirchoff’s Equal Resistance Path), which “ensures equal resistance and equal power delivery to all outlets.” There’s no daisy-chaining thus no outlet gets power before the next. This means that noise created by your system’s electronics will not migrate to the next output socket. Equally important is that each outlet is assigned its own dedicated filter network, which ensures optimal isolation between outlets. Additionally, the medium-current outlets auto-sense the requirements of the load based upon power draw. IsoTek asserts that its technology removes both differential-mode cross-contamination (appliance noise) and common-mode (RFI) noise, with a reduction of 60dB. Aquarius also features IsoTek’s unique sequential protection system boasting 67,500A of instantaneous protection from surges or spikes. Internal wiring is solid-core, silver-plated, OFC copper with a virtual air dielectric technology plus an outer dielectric of FEP/Teflon.

Some of you probably understand what all that means. I don't, but think it did some good.

Last edited by 2x6spds; 07/19/21 10:22 PM.

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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442871 07/19/21 10:44 PM
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If it truly matters to you, get a true sinewave UPS with 3000va rating and run it in battery mode.

Wall Voltage is used to charge the DC batteries. Then an inverter is used to change battery DC to AC for driving your load. Perfect sinewave with zero noise. Zero. Look at Double Conversion models.

As far as protection, you are never connected directly to utility so it is ideal in this scenario. No spikes…. Ever! smile

I run a Cyberpower unit rated at 2200va. Weighs like 80lbs. Runs three systems at same time no prob. Other units fine too I’m sure. We install Eaton units regularly.

OL2200RTXL2UN

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442872 07/20/21 02:03 AM
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There are three things a dedicated line would solve: if you don't have enough power (unless you like your music really loud and the line already has a power hog on it ... is probably not an issue), your sharing the line with noisy devices (also most likely not an issue), or you have ground loop issues because some of your audio gear is on a different line (usually solvable in other ways)

My advice is don't do anything till you find you have a problem. Then see if it's solvable by a cheaper method before going to the expense of running a line back to the panel.

Last edited by rrlev; 07/20/21 02:05 AM.
Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442873 07/20/21 02:07 AM
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On the UPS ... it's not a bad idea ... but again I'd wait an see if you have a problem ..

I have a few UPSs: Cyberpower, Trip-lite, and APC's. None on my audio gear ... just on computer and network stuff. Of the three brands I think the Cyberpower is the best value and seems to be an excellent unit. As Trevor said get one that outputs a sinewave ...

Last edited by rrlev; 07/20/21 02:09 AM.
Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442874 07/20/21 02:43 AM
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I use one 120V, 15 amp circuit to power 7 sealed subs, 2 ported subs, a 1000-2, a 1000-8, a 1500-3, a TV, a PS3, a tape deck, a karaoke, an Onk and a cable modem.

I'm only able to do this because I use a receptacle with a base plate of pre-famulated amulite surmounted by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving screws are in a direct line with the panametric phlam, so fitted to the ambifacient waneshaft that side fumbling is effectively prevented. Power is transmitted by the modial interaction of magneto-refluxance and capacitive diractance.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442875 07/20/21 06:28 AM
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I’m betting the first sentence is true …

and the 2nd is a description of a common wall outlet …
written in a typical Mojo gobbledygook style meant to confuse and bewilder … while also not being untrue.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442876 07/20/21 09:02 AM
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Mojo is referencing the Turbo Encabulator.

Its a long running joke about jargon; using an imaginary technology to accomplish something great. Thing is, the end goal is imaginary too…. Lol. In our hobby, high end stuff is often marketed using buzzwords that are almost logical. The thing is, as Mojo cleverly mocked that industry, its all nonsense. laugh

Turbo Encabulator. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag

1 member likes this: Mojo
Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442877 07/20/21 11:43 AM
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Maybe …. A few phrases seem to match that vid.. might be the inspiration of the joke.

But, I also think, part of the joke is to actually describe something real by mixing made up words with tech jargon so he can have fun arguing later that every word was true. I’d have to look up a few words to know for sure … but enough is there to figure it out.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442878 07/20/21 12:12 PM
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I think my receptacle would be more popular than this one.

https://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-blue-uef-duplex-receptacle?keyword_session_id=vt~adwords|kt~audiophile%20outlet|mt~p|ta~282390530281&_vsrefdom=wordstream&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6NmHBhD2ARIsAI3hrM0m0b5HuDKtiEZghvxts6ZSpQ1in3a1EgS5BCLySt_oEZd2YYy56tUaAh2EEALw_wcB#shopify-product-reviews


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442879 07/20/21 03:15 PM
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Mojo ... definitely, I agree ... don't know how they sell those things ...
Everyone knows that blue zaps all the good sound out of the wiring .,.. now if you came out with a red one ...

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442880 07/20/21 03:25 PM
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They have an entire product line of different colors. Owners claim the blue sounds best. laugh


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442881 07/20/21 04:21 PM
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Basically selling commercial grade outlets for 10 times the price.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442882 07/20/21 05:32 PM
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I listened to that video again and most of the sentence that was taken from the video I interpreted like this:

with a base plate of pre-famulated amulite: the outlet plate

surmounted by a malleable logarithmic casing: the outlet box

in such a way that the two spurving screws: the screws holding the plate

are in a direct line with the panametric phlam
so fitted to the ambifacient waneshaft: the holes in the box for the screws

that side fumbling is effectively prevented: that keeps the plate from moving

LOL ...

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442883 07/20/21 05:37 PM
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Exactly! We are both so brilliant! laugh


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Mojo #442884 07/20/21 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
They have an entire product line of different colors. Owners claim the blue sounds best. laugh
Obviously not true audiophiles ... Everyone knows that blue .... smile

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442886 07/20/21 07:10 PM
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I got 6 of those famulated amulets. Hghly recommended.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442890 07/21/21 07:55 AM
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High-end audio outlets ... I wouldn't have believed it. I used to have a link for ungodly expensive speaker wire elevators (ceramic stands to keep your wire off of the floor) that I used for posts because I found them hilarious; but sockets might be even better.

So the recommended approach is to do nothing unless there's a known problem. Doing nothing happens to fall into my wheelhouse, so I'm all set. (I did add a surge protector.) Thanks for the advice and the laugh!

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442892 07/21/21 04:46 PM
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The only real reason to run a dedicated circuit for the audio system all the way back to the panel - is to ensure the neutral is not shared with another circuit. Sometimes you will get some noise on a shared neutral.

Modern wiring (and also per last few NEC revs) requires ground fault protection on the majority of residential circuits at the breaker. And that requires home ran neutral wires. The previous practice of wiring a house would use 12/3 romax that would have two line wires, and one neutral. Now it's pretty much all 12/2.

Sooooo, depending on what circuit the electrician tired into, the load on that circuit, size of wire, length of run, shared or not shared neutral - you may have just pissed away some money for nothing gained.

Special receptacles that sound better???? Hogwash.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
michael_d #442895 07/21/21 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by michael_d
The only real reason to run a dedicated circuit for the audio system all the way back to the panel - is to ensure the neutral is not shared with another circuit. Sometimes you will get some noise on a shared neutral.
I think your limiting your thinking on why you might need to run another line .. I stated two more above.

A fourth could be that your system constantly trips an arc fault breaker and you need to go back to the panels and to use a ground fault instead. Arc faults look for signatures of arcing. Some devices (like inverter circuits) can trip them because the signature looks similar. Note: a ground fault on the other hand detects a difference in current going out the line and coming back on the neutral. If not the same it must be going somewhere else ... like though you body.

Originally Posted by michael_d
Modern wiring (and also per last few NEC revs) requires ground fault protection on the majority of residential circuits at the breaker. And that requires home ran neutral wires. The previous practice of wiring a house would use 12/3 romax that would have two line wires, and one neutral. Now it's pretty much all 12/2.
Also think you swapped 12/2 and 12/3 (note: wire size (AWG) over the number of wires excluding ground ... I'll just call it X/2 or X/3). For leads coming from the panel (residential panel usually only has two phases) the extra wire is used for the 2nd phase to give you 220V... at least in the states.

Up to recently one could run 220V with only X/2 by using the neutral for the 2nd phase. But there was or there's going to be a code change to require X/3 for two phases. I'm not sure why but may have to do with arc fault breakers. Be interested in the answer if you know it ... Anyway I think this may be what you're referring to.

Most audio equipment runs on a single phase needing only X/2 wiring. This has not changed.

Ok that was long winded ... but I should put in a disclaimer ...
The above is my understanding and since I'm not an electrician, I do not keep up with all changes in the code ... So if I stated anything wrong I hope someone, in the know, will correct me

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442896 07/22/21 06:11 AM
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My place was built in the 70's. I think the dedicated 20 amp line sounds really good. I don't remember what it used to sound like. The dedicated line was less expensive than any of my power cables.

One of the best sounding systems I ever had (because it was in an acoustically magic room) used Acme silver cryo treated outlets. The cost, $60. How much did they contribute to the sound quality? No idea. But, I've been using them ever since.

Yes, perhaps, theoretically, expecting a receptacle to improve sound quality is "hogwash," but, if your system is sufficiently resolving to detect small differences in sound quality, maybe, Michael d, you should give it a go. I mean, what the heck.

As I sit here, listening to my M80v2s, in the soft red glow of my Soviet 6c33c tubes, dedicated 20 amp line, cryo treated outlets, power conditioners and cables doing their thing, well, it all sure sounds pretty darn good.

Last edited by 2x6spds; 07/22/21 06:14 AM.

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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442897 07/22/21 08:08 AM
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I doubt your cryo treated outlet does much more than any other outlet. Usually I’d argue that as long as reasonably clean power is being delivered that how it got there makes no difference. It’s the power supplies job in each device to take in that power (even if noisy) and present it clean in what ever format it’s circuits require. Good supplies do this well. Bad ones … not so much. But I’d like to take a different approach and think about this from a slightly different direction …

The outlet is one connection in a chain of many that power goes through to get to your equipment. That that one connection is the one you need to invest in over any of the others (including the connections after it) is ahhh interesting. Many of the others are just wires held on by screws.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442898 07/22/21 09:01 AM
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They are Hubbell spec grade receptacles or at least clones (doubt it). Our price is $5.30ea. But we buy lots of em.

Might be a little more if you buy over the counter. Maybe $7.

They are indeed good receptacles with higher clamping force than residential grade. Hospital grade has even higher clamping force. You gotta mean it when you “pull the plug….”

Losses are always higher at terminations. Heat. If you want all the benefit without changing your receptacle, treat prongs on cords with Anti Ox sparingly.

This is in my kit for audio installs and terminating cables. Especially outdoors. Works on line voltage just as well. One ounce tube lasts long time on small conductors. Dont need much.

https://www.amazon.ca/Gardner-Bende...und/dp/B000BOCBCA/ref=asc_df_B000BOCBCA/

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442899 07/22/21 02:00 PM
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12/2 is code in the states. Don't run an arc fault breaker or outlet unless it's a bedroom. They have a tendency to trip. Ground fault is overkill unless you just want the extra protection. Arc faults have to be on bedroom outlets now and ground faults in the bathroom and anything above the counter in the kitchen in addition to outdoor outlets. Commercial grade outlets are more than enough for audio outlets. We did not use any residential outlets in our home build. Bulk buying is the cheapest route if you need several. We wired the HT on dedicated circuits but probably not necessary with the new building codes. Also, in the states we were required to use tamper proof outlets with the new codes.


LFR1100
VP180HP
EP600
M3 In Ceiling x 4
M5OW
M2 - Atmos rears
ADA1500.5
M3 Outdoor Speakers
ADA 1000.8
Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Canesfan27 #442900 07/22/21 06:32 PM
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We are getting a bit off track on how wiring affects audio ... so feel free to skip this post ,.. i.e. "these are not the droids we are looking for ... move along".

Originally Posted by Canesfan27
12/2 is code in the states.

The gauge of wire is dependent on two things ... amperage and length. Since I don't know the code for this I can just tell you what I have in my house (built last year).

Most if not all 120V outlets are wired with 12/2. Most if not all 120V lighting was done with 14/2 and 14/3.
I'm not sure if 12/2 was required as a minimum for all 15A outlets or if it was just easier to use it for all outlets without keeping track of the run length.

Originally Posted by Canesfan27
Don't run an arc fault breaker or outlet unless it's a bedroom. They have a tendency to trip. Ground fault is overkill unless you just want the extra protection. Arc faults have to be on bedroom outlets now and ground faults in the bathroom and anything above the counter in the kitchen in addition to outdoor outlets.
That's interesting. The electrician said they were required in kitchens too ... at least in Massachusetts. Unfortunately the inverter in our microwave kept blowing it. I ended up just getting a different microwave. Less often, I have the same problem with my shop lights. Not sure why I have an arc fault on them ... perhaps because the downstairs bedroom light is also on it? I'm pretty sure they would not have used one if code didn't require it ...be nice to know the reasoning ...

Originally Posted by Canesfan27
Commercial grade outlets are more than enough for audio outlets. We did not use any residential outlets in our home build. Bulk buying is the cheapest route if you need several. We wired the HT on dedicated circuits but probably not necessary with the new building codes.
From what I understand the difference between commercial grade and residential grade is durability. Outlets like all connectors are only guaranteed for a limited number of swipes before they wear out. (I.E. Swipes on Residential grade << swipes on Contractor grade.)

I do not know if the contact resistance is any better ... but it has to be reasonable on all outlets otherwise they would be a hazard. It does make sense that if the outlet is worn thin then you'll have a higher resistance. So in places where you are constantly plugging in and out stuff, like the kitchen, you'd definitely want the higher grade ...

On contact force ... guess I should qualify that this is educated reasoning rather than hard facts ... just applying what I know about connectors to stuff I know about outlets ...

Once you reach a force that wipes the contacts clean (so you get a good connection) extra force may just result in extra wear. So there are trade offs. Hospital grade outlets have a high contact force mainly to keep the plug from being accidentally pulled out. I'm sure they are designed for long wear too (probably by having a thicker layer of contact material) making it more expensive (but not necessarily better)

Originally Posted by Canesfan27
Also, in the states we were required to use tamper proof outlets with the new codes.
We have no tamper proof outlets ... most likely it's a state requirement.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442901 07/22/21 11:13 PM
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I no longer have a COF, so I'm not inclined to give wiring advice or get too deep into NEC interpretation. My earlier comments were about generic wiring of circuits and the rationale around a dedicated "line" for the EQ Rack, verse adding a receptacle to an existing circuit.

Having said that, in years past (not too long ago either), 12/3 was used throughout a structure for 110V/120V. It was quicker and saved effort with respect to running wire between the panel and the first Jbox, or just drilling holes in studs and joists for the romex. For example, I would run a length of 12/3 to the first convenient box in a bedroom where I planned to install 4 duplex receptacles. Per code at the time, 8 receptacles was the max I could feed from a 15A circuit. Well, the room also needed a couple of receptacles for lights and/or a ceiling fan. I would use one of the line conductors for the receptacles and the other line conductor for the lights, running 12/2 to the rest of the room box's. That left one N and one G for both the lighting and power circuits back to the panel.

This method of pulling/installing romex was common in the industry. It can cause issues though. Some light fixtures send weird amounts of current back to ground through the neutral, and sometimes, this is enough to create "noise" on the circuit used for the receptacles. I've seen enough stray current at times to trip a GFCI receptacle before. It can also be a PITA to troubleshoot.....

Nowadays, you just don't wire a house or other building using 12/3 for 110V/120V. 12/2 is used. This enables the wireman to do whatever he/she needs to do with the neutral wire back at the panel. Sometimes you only need to land it to the bus bar, or you might run it to an AFCI or GFCI breaker.

So back to the original question.....is a dedicated line needed? Yes, I think it is. And no, I would not consider adding a receptacle to an originally installed circuit a good idea, - unless that circuit is home ran (both L and N), and it has capacity for the added receptacle.

And I always use 12G wire (copper solid strand). I don't screw around with 14G. Not many electricians do. 12G is good for a 20 amp circuit, 14G isn't, well usually isn't.

For new construction, AFCI circuits are the norm if GFCI is not needed. A lot of electricians run combo circuits. The electricians I work with tell me it the next NEC will most likely call for all residential circuits to be AFCI, with exception of those that require GFCI.

For the receptacle, I have a preference for hospital-grade. They are stout as hell, near impossible to break when landing wires, and will outlast the home. More expensive, but not really that much more when you look at the total installed cost of the system.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442902 07/23/21 01:05 AM
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Hi Micheal ... all you said makes sense to me. I think we are not in disagreement. I now understand the 12/3 and 12/2 stuff you were talking about. I also understand why one of the electricians told me that 2 phase and single phase shouldn't be in the same box ... didn't get that one till you mentioned the common neutral and the problems it causes.

BTW: what does COF stand for in your context ... I only know it as Certified Old Fart smile

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442903 07/23/21 01:12 AM
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Oh, one more thing ... I might be wrong on this but don't the AFCI breakers also include ground fault detection? I'm pretty sure mine do both ...

Last edited by rrlev; 07/23/21 01:27 AM.
Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
rrlev #442904 07/23/21 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Canesfan27
Also, in the states we were required to use tamper proof outlets with the new codes.
We have no tamper proof outlets ... most likely it's a state requirement.[/quote]

It may be anything below a certain height, I can't recall, but we ended up with tamper proof outlets throughout to simplify.

Bedroom lights have to be on AFCI and outlets do as well. We could have wired bedroom outlets off one breaker but ran two for each room since we have 400amp service and plenty of room. The vacuum cleaner will still trip the AFCI once in a while especially on the wall wired in with the air purifier and tv plugged in and on.

We did run 14ga for lights instead of 12ga. I agree I think eventually 12ga will be required throughout although lights don't pull much current.

If they go to AFCI on everything it's easy to swap out the breakers and we wired everything not to overload any one breaker.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442905 07/23/21 03:24 PM
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C.O.F. - Certificate of Fitness. I moved into management many years ago and just couldn't keep up with the required continuing education and time to study/sit for exams to keep mine current.

There are combination AFCI/GFCI breakers now. They open if either ground or arc fault is detected. Expensive and somewhat new'ish tech, but are becoming more mainstream..... Single-function AFCI or GFCI do not protect for both faults, to the best of my knowledge.

Just for clarification, the vast majority of residential wiring is single phase. Two-phase power generation was replaced by three-phase power decades ago. The residential feed is two 120V legs of three-phase power supply from the transformer, with one neutral. Commercial power will generally have all three phases ran to the building. So technically - your home is single phase, even 240V circuits.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442906 07/23/21 03:44 PM
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12 AWG for lights IMO is overkill in most residential homes ... if anything the power needed for lighting has been going down. For years 14 AWG was used when most all residential lighting was incandescent. Then most switched to CFL (which consumed much less). Now most residential lighting is heading to LED. So, lighting is using something between a 5th to a 10th of what it used to. Some numbers off the top of my head ...

an efficient non-dimming led light can give you around 100 lumens/watt,
a dimming one a bit over 82-85 lumens/watt
an incandescent about 11 to maybe 15 lumens/watt.

Now all that said some people still insist on only putting in incandescent ...

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
michael_d #442907 07/23/21 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by michael_d
So technically - your home is single phase, even 240V circuits.
Well, guess you can look at it that way (maybe). I see it as 2 of 3 phases each giving 120V to neutral. If you take the difference between the 2 phases you get 240 ... but hey, I'm an engineer ... it's hard for me over simply stuff because although it gives an idea of what going on ... it's just not quite right.

This especially bugs my wife who just wants simple two second explanations. She gets really impatient if I give the two minute one, I think, because in most cases it's completely unintelligible to her.

For example ... I'd say one thing and she hears:

A base plate of pre-famulated amulite surmounted by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving screws are in a direct line with the panametric phlam, so fitted to the ambifacient waneshaft that side fumbling is effectively prevented.

smile

Last edited by rrlev; 07/23/21 04:43 PM. Reason: added example
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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442908 07/23/21 04:52 PM
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2 phase lines are 90 degrees apart electrically. 240V house power is single phase and is sometimes called split phase.

Rich, maybe it's best your wife just sticks to the reality she knows best. smile

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Am I sensing things as they really are?

Inside I find
A trustworthy mind
Freed from illusions blurred
The thoughts that appear
Are so crystal clear
Mind over matter preferred

That leaf that I glean
Is not even green
Nor it's shape so simple, distinct
It's a fact that the green
Is but a smokescreen
And the shape is wavy fields linked

But inside my beef
A leaf is a leaf
No blurry senses buffet
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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442909 07/23/21 06:33 PM
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Yep, your house is single phase 120V. To get 240V you are running a double pole breaker and sending 120V twice.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Mojo #442910 07/23/21 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
2 phase lines are 90 degrees apart electrically. 240V house power is single phase and is sometimes called split phase.

hmmm ... I think maybe you meant 120 degrees apart ... and yes if you only look at the difference between line one and line 2 it's single phase which is what most 240V devices see. It's just a point of view. I'm thinking about it from power into the house perpective and your looking at it as power distribute to the device.

I don't think we are disagreeing here, If you don't distribute the neutral, the outlet is single phase ... but what is it if you do distribute the neutral?

Anyway, It would have been nice to have all three phases but I don't think it's distributed on the pole in residential areas. There are a few machines I'd would have consider'ed if it was. frown

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442911 07/23/21 10:41 PM
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Nope. 90 degrees apart.

I remember, Mr. Vermeulen, my grade 11 Electric Machines teacher, hand-built a 2-phase motor. He told us, "You rotten kids will never see another machine like this in your pathetic lives." He wanted to demonstrate how easy it was to start a 2-phase motor compared to a single phase motor. The rotating field starts the rotor when it's stationary.

I clearly remember the two windings were spaced 90 degrees apart and so were the two phase voltages. It had 4 brushes and he brought 4 wires out.

Mr. V was one of those rare teachers who expanded my mind.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442912 07/23/21 11:23 PM
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ok, did I miss something ... this is 2 lines of a 3 phase generator ... take your choice of two: 0, 120 or 240 degrees of phase shift ...

ahhh wait, I think I understand ... your up to your devilish tricks again ... knowingly causing trouble and confusion by referring to something similar but different ... and I stepped into the trap ... smile

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442913 07/23/21 11:52 PM
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No. I assure you I am up to nothing but trying to educate. It is two phases with each separated by 90 electrical degrees. Each phase goes to a winding. The two windings are spaced 90 degrees apart. That is a two phase motor - or generator if you decide to spin the shaft and watch the voltages between the brushes.

Two phase power is rare in North America. It's all single and three phase now.

Scroll down to Figure 17. Two phase power is not the same as two phases of a three phase source.

https://www.industrial-electronics.com/epst-3e_14b.html


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442914 07/24/21 12:23 AM
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Pretty good visual aid worth the watch....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBiUOQ2WX2I

And yah, 2 phase power is a different animal than single/three-phase.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442915 07/24/21 01:02 AM
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He's egg'in you on Michael ... he knows exactly what he's doing ...

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442916 07/24/21 01:13 AM
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Two phase motor vid:

https://youtu.be/XOWO2o9_J3E

Three phase rotating magnetic field:

https://youtu.be/_DYt0Wpmwqg

It's magic!


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Mojo #442917 07/24/21 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
I remember, Mr. Vermeulen, my grade 11 Electric Machines teacher, hand-built a 2-phase motor. He told us, "You rotten kids will never see another machine like this in your pathetic lives." .
Obvisously he knew his audience smile

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
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Yup. Three of us were the exception. smile


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442919 07/24/21 10:50 AM
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I can tell a lot of googling went into this thread…. Lol.

Michael is an OG sparkie! Respect!

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442920 07/24/21 12:09 PM
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Actual Trevor I only had to google the two phase motor/gen stuff and what was a hospital grade outlet … the rest was just general knowledge…
(Including knowing lumens/watts of led devices ….)

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442921 07/24/21 03:35 PM
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Another way to think of this single/two/three-phase discussion is to know that you are not seeing two phases of a 3-phase supply grid at your home's meter base. The electric utility will run two, 120V lines and a center-tapped neutral that are feed from a single phase of a three-phase power supply from the utility (utility substations are usually fed 13.8kV or 4160V, depending on the distance from the source). A transformer will step down the voltage to 240 (generally) on a single phase and the N splits it (center tap) so you get two lines of 120V to the meter. If your meter were to be fed 120V from two of the 3 phases, then you would only get 208V between the two phases.

Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
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True dat.


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Re: Dedicated Line for Amp?
Cork #442931 07/24/21 06:54 PM
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Ok, I was wondering about that math … makes sense. Which means that the 2 lines in are really 180 deg out of phase … thanks for setting me straight on this.

Last edited by rrlev; 07/24/21 07:17 PM.
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