Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Speaker cables

I agree with Chess. You can get a lot more from a used amp/receiver. Anthem makes great audio products that not only spec well, but sound great.

2x, I’ll take your agreement with Chess very narrowly … that one can get better value in the used market ….

Chess, I guess the question I have is … are we here to help solve a problem or to diss equipment?

I can’t speak for the 5000’s headroom … I’ll assume it has none. But that doesn’t mean it can’t get loud. (I have no doubt that the outlaw’s first 180 watts are clean.) it just means at loud volume it will clip the dynamic peaks beyond that.

Since he did not mention anything about bad sound I would not be jumping to the conclusion that his amp doesn’t have enough juice. My 100 watt receiver gets plenty loud … and his outlaw should be putting it to shame.

Yup, I'm not dissing Outlaw products. My friend has an Outlaw 5 channel receiver driving some Michaura M665 towers (very much like our M60s) and M55 surrounds (very much like our M22s). Sounds great.

I have no experience with Emotiva products. I had an Anthem PVA 5 channel amplifier (rated at 120ish watts per channel). Very, very nice sound quality. Never had a clipping problem with it.

"Rock Concert” levels.... "in a reasonably sized home listening space"
This is all undefined and specific to individuals. Without having more information on the listening distance and room size, i won't start by assuming the problem is electronic. I'm not assuming their space is a lovely 12x12 room and that the person sits 10 feet away. In my case, this amp is insufficient for our main floor space using 94db/w/m rated speakers. Our existing Anthem would clip just before the point around where i would max out my SPL preference at greatest distance. If i get any less efficient speakers (including Axioms based on posted measurements), i would need even more power (which i have now and based on all calculations should provide enough overhead so i don't have to concern about the near clipping edge).

What is 'rock concert' to some (many won't listen beyond 85dB) is not rock concert to others (fellow hockey guy i know loves 95dB+ and wonders why he burnt his Sony speakers running off one of those 100W/ch AVRs). With that example in mind, the Sony owner wasn't aware of what clipping sounds like and he would turn his system up to about 95% on a regular basis. Just because there was no mention of change in sound quality doesn't mean clipping is not happening if the person doesn't recognize it and at lower amounts of clipping, it is hard to detect with loud (e.g. hard rock) music. Sometimes it can make the sound really bad but other times it can be written off as just the loudness of the music.
AVR and amps without much dynamic headroom will clip sooner than you think.
There's lots of power calculators out there and depending on what gets plugged in, you get different results. Ultimately, 10-12 feet away, 100dB playback for a 90db/w/m speaker results in minimums around 120W-220W (not including peaks which if you increase the headroom number, the wattage requirements skyrocket which is where the capacitance reserve is important).
https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-often-do-amplifiers-clip.12757/page-2

Anyway, following some answers about the listening environment, then i would consider the electronics. One thing that came to mind was in re: to this person's pre-pro. Are they using an AVR that has a volume limiter?
I would expect they would know that though but they didn't provide any info about that either.
Having had the opportunity in the past to turn up a system to 100%, i can say that the volume doesn't increase beyond 85-90%, only the distortion does, which can 'sound' louder but the measured SPL didn't change.
I have no idea what the OP is experiencing or to help narrow down a source without more information.

On the contrary, I'm not dissing any gear at all (not sure how you read that). The Outlaw amp was rated very well among fans and even by ASR and i had considered Outlaw and Emotiva amps for the main floor.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...000-multichannel-amplifier-review.10585/

However, you still get what you pay for. Is the OP having a PSU failure of some kind? Possibly. Based on the Outlaw numbers, the PSU, capacitance choice doesn't strike me as particularly robust, longevity-of-product engineering. You can keep costs down by cutting corners and still making things work, mostly.

Emotiva is the same. I had to fiddle with my pre-pro, do a beta firmware update that really took some trials to get to work, plus a Sony tv update and fixed most of the main issue i had related to HDMI switching which was the primary reason i was buying the Emo. If i couldn't get that to work, i would have had to turn around and resell the unit less than a month after procuring one from the used market and be forced to buy a processor for $1500 or more (may as well consider an AVR at that point but i'll digress from my rant on why pre-pros are so stupidly expensive).

Larger more expensive brands can have issues of course (e.g. the Onkyo hdmi board), but i've experienced nothing like this Emotiva fix i had to undertake myself (thankfully being computer savvy, updating firmware on hardware is a familiar task). Based on my broad readings, this type of thing is common with Emotiva, but hey, they're inexpensive so you have trade offs. Outlaw is no different. Personally i've become a fan of Rotel gear which performs solid and is generally less expensive than most, although more than Outlaw/Emo.
Based on all the reading and research i undertook before settling on amps, i opted not to go with Outlaw or Emotiva because of their reported problems which included anything from poor customer service, lack of communication and variety of reported technical issues and failures. Additionally i had some insight from someone who did electronics repairs that commented on these amps brands that went through their hands at some point and wasn't overly positive on the components. I would take a chance on the Emo pre-pro, but not on the amp driving $6500 speakers. That's just my opinion and i'm grateful to have the resources to be able to buy an amp for which i am comfortable owning and using. If i didn't, i would probably own an Outlaw or an Emo (whichever got the best ratings and lowest complaints abroad), but i would also not be owning $6k+ in speakers!

Chess, I was trying to be vague …. I just wanted to say that i thought he had enough power to fill a decent size residential room to a uncomfortably high level. I’m not claiming distortion free but distortion free enough for your average non-critical listener.

If you really want to go through the exercise we could do the math and estimate the max SPL number for 180 watts at 10ft (or ask Captain4105 for his actual MLP) … then just by subtracting 15db we will also know the loudest we can play it with enough headroom for dynamics.

I live for details.

I actually tried playing with the calcs for my own rooms in the past. The calcs are simplistic models for which all variables cannot be accounted. Theoretically i should have enough power with my Anthem and the Tannoy speakers to hit 100dB at 18 feet, but that isn't the reality.
Buy more power/overhead than you need, up to what you can afford (i think i'm paraphrasing something Ian has long promoted).

sure they are simplistic ... but it's quick and gets you some ball park numbers ... So, just for fun

LFR880 SPL 92dB 1W/1 meter
SPL 1W @ 10ft (3.048meters)
= 92 - 20 log(3.048) = 82.32 db

SPL 180W @ 10ft
= 82.32 db + 10 log(180) = 104.87 db

Degrading (turning down the volume) so we don't clip dynamics (-15db) we have an SPL of 90db at 10 ft. So you can get a front row classical music experience without distortion but if you want rock concert levels your gonna have to move closer (and wear ear plugs )

And using a different calc (the one at Acoustic Frontiers), using the same numbers, to hit 104dB at that distance, speaker efficiency and assuming 3dB of headroom (the default and not unreasonable), RMS watts 120W and peak amp watts required, 240! (theoretically, room reflections, size, distance from walls, can change that further)

Every model is a bit different depending on what else gets plugged into it. I've done enough modeling in my lifetime to know, i rarely trust models (there's always a question to be asked, something that hasn't been considered, and the best model being when every variable that affects something can be entered but in that instance, measuring everything to get data to fill in the everything included model already answers the question).
Ballpark? How big is the ballpark?
In this case, the wattage for peaks at the same listening distance and dB you noted is beyond the capacity of the Outlaw amp, or very well could be.
This brings us back around to my original questions first; what does the OP consider loud, at what distance.

We'll go around in circles on this forever.
Probably an old thread where the circle was already driven 500 laps.

OP likely already asking question in another forum for answer they “want”.

Pretty sure wanting new speaker cables and what to buy was agenda.

If you are still here bulk #10 Belden from blue jeans cable is fine.

If you want to spend more maybe buy preterminated kimber. Dunno.