Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Speaker Comparison - M60Ti vs M60v4

In our house we all agree that that Ti has the greater clarity over V4s. If i could get Axiom to build me their Ti in the new wood veneer and a VP180 version, i would order them!


They probably would build you those or even ship you the ti tweeters

Well, over the weekend i had the chance to pit the LFR 880s against the M60 V4 and the M60 Ti.
Not sure i should do another complete write up though i suppose it might be worth its own thread on the topic.
The results have sent us down a path we had not anticipated.

Oh man, you're a tease chessero! Come on do it, do it!

Since i already compared the M60 V4 and Ti in our media/HT room (in this thread), i thought i would just add the LFR880s comparison vs. these two here as well.
I did not take detailed notes on this comparison. The most recent session was undertaken later last Saturday evening before i was breaking down the whole A/B setup (amps, cables) for the next morning, so the listening session was maybe an hour at most and a bit off the cuff. I just wanted to sit down and try out some other music for kicks while the LFR were still down in the media room.

A bit of background first.
About four years ago during our last Axiom factory tour, the main reason i wanted to travel there was to hear the new LFR speaker. We were evaluating whether we wanted to use the effect in the media room in part to adjust for a L/R speaker pull because of the distance-placement limitations. However, since that time we were looking for a large speaker with a big soundstage for the main floor to possibly replace our Tannoys and now that we finally have a pair of LFR here to test, we tried them out in the living room. We were considering the bigger LFR1100 for this area and for now picked up a pair of refurb 880s. In short, for a few reasons as noted in the other speaker comparison posts, we passed on this idea for the main floor, and because the 880s are a big speaker, it hadn't occurred to me to consider them for the media room. If we were to get LFR for that room, it would make more sense to get the smaller LFR660s.

Anyway, I had decided to take the 880s down to the media room as we had originally planned to test out the LFR soundstage which we did last week. It was good, wider for sure, but the M60 V4 or Ti still provide a very good, albeit a more collapsed soundstage with a very good stereo image across the front. The L/R pull is mild really so going with the LFR would be such a small difference that we didn't feel it would be worth the change considering the cost. The interesting part about that first LFR vs V4 session was we were focused on the soundstage and imaging and i actually didn't take the time to listen to the other tonal characteristics of the speakers. Now we come back to where i started this story; last Saturday just sitting down to listen to the LFR for kicks.

Axiom M60Ti and M60V4 vs. LFR880s

So, since I had everything still setup for A/B testing, I sat there staring at all the cables and amps mess and figured I would procrastinate before having to pack it all up. I thought I would trial the LFR880s against the V4 one last time. Put on a few songs from east coast artists such as the Barra MacNeils, Rankin Family, Irish Descendants and then some Barenaked Ladies (Gordon album).

On the very first Barra MacNeil song (Darling Be Home Soon) I flipped back and forth between the M60 V4 and the LFR880 and I was quite surprised. The LFR880 sounded so much more clear, more open than the M60 V4. The vocals were not lost in the midrange and frankly I thought to myself, this sounds more like the vocals do on the M60 Ti (and that sparked the idea to haul the M60 Ti back into the room to test them vs. the LFR880s once I was done with the M60 V4 test).

The midrange was fairly similar between the M60 V4 and LFR880s although there was more a muddiness to the M60 that seemed to lose the detail amongst the scrum of sounds a bit. This is something we noted in our earlier observations but in part may attribute this to the reduced upper midrange and tweeter energy (see the LARSA sweeps of the LFR880s and V4s) making the vocals especially sound less forward, more recessed and blending almost too much with the midrange getting lost somewhat in the midrange and instrument sounds. Conversely, the midrange on the LFR880s sounded nice and full but without sounding muddy. Perhaps that greater clarity mentioned earlier is part of the reason. Just looking at the LARSA sweeps after, when comparing the LFR880s to the M60 V4 in the same room, the 880s have a good hump in the 800Hz -2kHz point up 5dB from the lowest midrange point while conversely the M60 V4 have 5dB decline from1.5kHz to 3kHz. Additionally, the M60 V4 have a 10dB difference between the 200Hz to 600Hz range while the 880s only have a 5-7dB difference across this same frequency range. I always knew, long knew, that that M80 had a slightly different character than the M60. Way back in the early forum days, the easiest answers for newbs asking about the differences was to say “the M80 will mostly just play louder and is for bigger rooms” but it’s tweeter output always had a bigger hump/rise over the M60s. I probably should have been a bit less surprised as we were comparing essentially a M60 to a M80 version of the LFRs. I had not expected the tonal character to be THAT different.

The weight of the M60 V4 bass was far heavier than the older Ti so I used a few port plugs to tame the bass but I took them out for this comparison vs. the LFR880s. Well the bass of the LFR880 definitely overpowered the space. It wasn't as bloated sounding as the M60 V4 but there was just too much and it sounded undefined. We had also noted this on the main floor with the LFR880s as well but it was more pronounced in the smaller room. Looking at the LARSA sweeps after, it is notable how the M60 V4 has more energy through the 40Hz to 175Hz range compared to the LFR880 with multiple humps. There is also a distinct difference in the decline to its eventually lowest bottom end valley around 95Hz for the 880s but at 190Hz for the M60 V4.
I put the two port plugs into the LFR880s and it really improved the bass response (I will post the LARSA sweeps of the difference). It really tightened up the bass on the LFR880s yet on the M60 V4, there was less bass but still sounded undefined. It is interesting since the longstanding reputation of Axiom speakers was certainly not ‘warm’, ‘fat’ or ‘bloated’ in the bottom end or midrange but they have had some serious changes in the last 20 years.

Lastly, the soundstage again of M60 V4 (or Ti) vs. LFR880s. Here is where I give the LFR an edge about 70-30. The soundstage was much better on some songs. It gave them an airier and full presence in the room. Other songs, especially more bright recordings, it was far less obvious and neither speaker was a winner. Then we listened to some Barenaked Ladies (Gordon album – Hello City) and Page’s voice was pin point with the M60 V4 and while still sounding good and accurate, it was more diffuse and less pinpoint with the LFR. It was like hearing Page right in front of you (M60 V4) vs. hearing him up on stage with more of an echo around (LFR880). This is an example where that extra reflection effect takes the soundstage back vs. the M60 which present the vocals right up front. The LFR effects really do vary depending from recording to recording but as mentioned, overall 70% (general relative guesstimate from the # of our songs tested), the LFR effect adds a really good sound and greatly benefits the overall experience.

Now, since we heard this much greater clarity in the vocals and midrange with the 880s vs. the M60 V4, and knowing we reported the same observation with the M60 Ti vs. the M60 V4s, the next natural comparison was to listen for these specific characteristics (midrange, upper and tweeter, clarity, harshness, recessed, etc.) in the M60 Ti with the LFR880s.

Breaking this one down in a shorter summary:
M60 Ti compared to LFR880 – the Ti sounded thin, vocals and high midrange were tinny, actually caused some ringing in the ears on some sounds (banjo in Barra MacNeil songs), bass was anemic in comparison though tight and well defined.

Final Conclusions
M60 Ti
Sounds like the old school Axiom character; precise, bright high end with some harshness but nice tight bass and generally clear midrange. A fantastic value at $1200 a pair at the time.

M60 V4
The new M60 V4 has more recessed vocals and midrange than its predecessor and although it still presents great detail, just seems like it is harder to hear. The bass is much heavier than the Ti to the point where port plugs were needed which reduced the output but the bass still seemed undefined. The real disappointment thought was the lost clarity in vocals and midrange as that is definitely something I feel sounds best for a speaker. If the music drowns out the small sounds, if the singer is overridden by the music, it doesn’t sound like a high resolution presentation, not very clear reproduction of sound even though overall it is still a good speaker and sounds pleasant on the ears. I can see why some people will really like this sound.

LFR880
The LFR880s had a much greater clarity than the M60 V4 but without the harshness of the older M60 Ti in the midrange and upper end. Its bass presence may be a bit much for our HT room (and maybe even a bit fat to start) but putting in two port plugs really improved this sound character. Add in the LFR effect and the pleasant airyness, broad soundstage brought to most musical tracks, as well as the reduction if not complete elimination in our L/R pull makes the 880s a very appealing option to replace the M60s. If these are coming from the refurb section, the cost is very manageable aside from having to find a replacement amp for our Anthem MCA30 as I would be looking for a 5 channel amp to drive both a pair of LFR and the new VP180 centre without consuming too much media console space.

Overall I still think the Axioms sound more recessed compared to all the other speakers that we auditioned this past month (see all my other comparison posts), but for this HT room, comparing Axiom vs. Axioms and deciding which to keep, the LFR880s would be our best choice for replacement for the old M60 Ti.

LARSA sweeps of the M60s and LFR in the HT room

Since some people will ask, i'm posting the LARSA sweeps of the LFR880s with port plugs. The bass hump reduction is very evident.

Additionally, i'm posting the LARSA sweeps when the DSP is set to a room boundary setting of Far 2 and then Near 2 (without the port plugs).
We could not hear any distinct differences in a limited listening test of these settings. That involved playing back a song and one person slowly switching from the DSP 'normal' setting to Far 1, Far 2, then back to normal and then over to Near 1, then Near 2.
The LARSA sweeps also seems to indicate such small differences, it likely explains the difficulty in hearing any thing significant.

Does thedip at 125hz go away if you pull the speakers outfurther?

Just guessing, but SBIR at 125hz is roughly 26” . No corners to obscure comb filter in this setup. I see it repeating at 125hz intervals. Curious. Is your baffle 26” off front wall?

I did not try that with the LFR again in part because there is a limited distance from that wall to the seated position and reducing that distance makes the stereo imaging worse, BUT, it is notable that the M60 V4 has a hump at that same frequency and is the same distance from the back wall to the baffle. Same goes for the M60 Ti (has a significant valley around 95 Hz, not 125). If this was specific to the LFR880 then, well, we're all at a loss to adjust specific speaker distance for an exact room. Move a few inches in one direction, you get a valley at X frequency, a few inches another direction, you get a valley at Y frequency.

It is close to that for the M60 (about 26-27" with the toe in) but the 880s were out by another inch because of their size (was trying to balance front baffle without them being too close to the back wall as they are deeper than the M60s). As mentioned though, if the 880s suffer this, why did it not show at that frequency for the other two M60s?
Seems odd no?