Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Axiom Subwoofers vs other brands. Need compact.

I am starting to research which subwoofer to get along with my M5HP onwalls and VP100 OW for my small space i have my home theater in. Its roughly a 9x10 ft space. However, one side of the space does open up into a larger room in my basement so its not a truly closed 9x10 space. The M5s arent pointed out towards the open part so the sound reflects well in the space as it is and sound great.

I am specifically looking for a sub in compact package. I have been considering the EP-125 by axiom as its smaller, but I am also looking at the SVS micro 3000. I am considering the SVS as it takes up very little space, comes with metal grills over the dual subs, which to me is a great feature as i have two dogs that like to play with balls on the ground. The axiom would fit better looks wise, but has a cloth grill. The SVS would not look out of place. I like the SVS by how small it is.

Just wondering if any of you have any experience with SVS subs vs Axiom and if it came down to it what your thoughts would be.

Thank you.

I have owned both and messed with both in a few rooms. If you are looking for value vs output go with SVS. If you are looking for sound quality and tunability go Axiom. Honestly, I would just buy an Axiom EP500 and never look back. Holy cow do they rock for what they are. But I am biased and push them on virtually all my installs. Owners are never let down though. Usually get a "holy shit" out of them. Then grins.

If you do go with Axiom be sure to order with rubber feet and place on carpet. I can make Axiom subs make bad noises on hardwood floors or spiked through carpet at low frequencies and high spl. There is a sympathetic frequency that causes a hammering effect and the floor to rubber feet interface being somewhat springy like carpet cancels this issue. Tip from the trenches. I don't blame the subs... High spl at low freq= kinetic energy.

Thanks for the input. If i had the room and wanted to spend the money on that I would. That thing is basically the size of a small end table, but not as large as other subs I've seen. Im trying to stay small with the woofer size.

For reference the entire first floor of my house is 800 Sqft and the basement is about 450ish. I am not a huge fan of clutter and like to keep things compact if possible.

I don't have experience with the SVS but judging by the specs, it goes lower and louder than the 125 by a good margin. With your room gain, you won't miss too much in movies. And since movies are what you mostly listen to, the SVS should serve you well.

I have the 125 (actually two) and for music in my 1920 cu ft living room, I prefer it over my 500, 600 and 800. Different story though in my 4200 cu ft main room.

Good tip about the wood, Trevor.

Edit: I am assuming Eblack your hearing is "good" down to 20Hz. If not, you will need the 500. Note how the 500 is flat down to 20Hz. The SVS is flat down to 30Hz. If you're deaf down low, the 500 will give you a lot of boost right where you need it.

Edit again: As long as your hearing is good, AND you don't have mattresses lining your walls :), the SVS should be good.

Andrew Welker did a video talking about kilowatt micro subs, and at 8:15 in, he comments that an EP125 likely outperforms one (and saving a whack full of money). If a loudspeaker designer says it, I'm more inclined to take his advice than myself browsing through brochures.

https://youtu.be/-N72-xoRImc

Andrew didn't specifically compare the 125 to the SVS 3000 micro in his video.

A preponderance of the specifications of the 125 vs the SVS 3000 micro strongly suggests the SVS is the heavier hitter. The 125 is down at 60dB at 20Hz while the SVS is at 72. That 12dB sounds more than twice as loud.

The SVS is not defeating physics. It is using dual 8", active drivers powered by 1250 peak W amps to achieve the stated performance. This is in contrast to the single 8" driver powered by 550 peak W of the 125.

Of course it's impossible to know which one sounds better from these specs alone. Or to know which one is more reliable. And SVS doesn't have the loyalty program Axiom customers enjoy. The micro is also 70% more money.

These factors aside, Eblack is interested mostly in movies so it's pretty hard to recommend the 125.

P.S. It's not clear to me at what SPL the 3000 micro compresses. Eblack, you'll want to ask SVS for the frequency response curves at various SPLs.

P.P.S. Eblack, maybe you can negotiate a deal with both manufacturers to buy both, try and return the one that doesn't work for you.

The 3000 would eat the 125 for lunch. And it should. It costs way more.

In a real room the 125 dives after 40hz. Just replaced two for an owner that upped to dual 500s. The owner thought with his wallet initially and ended up wasting money…. Oh well.

In a small bedroom or desktop setup 125 would be ok. Movies? Ehhhh….

I think the EP500 is not much bigger practically than the footprint of the smaller subs. Taller moreso.

I can't recommend the 125 for movies unless those movies are bandwidth-limited. Is OTA or cable TV limited on the audio side? I ask because I haven't watched in over 30 years.

I am sure Andrew optimized the v4 sub designs within the constraints he was given.

BTW, there is always the EP400.

Disc. With m22.

Axiom will still make all the discontinued stuff if asked nicely. I'm thinking of an M40 just because I want to compare with my discontinued ebony M50v4. I have a lime mankini that will fit it.

The EP500 is IMO the sweet spot of axioms subs in performance v.s. size v.s. cost.

If that’s too big then Mojo’s suggestion of the EP400 might be a great solution.
If I remember right it was designed specifically to be small but powerful. Trading off efficiency for size.
And Mojo’s right on a lot of discontinued product … provided they still have the parts needed to build it.

I should add that if cost is an big issue then your left with the non-dsp Axiom subs or another brand

They commented in the YouTube video that yes indeed they would do special order of past products.

Is the 400 a sealed unit then? Smaller form and 400 watts…( captain obvious here….but just checking. )

Anyone ever tried an ep600 oriented laying day horizontally long? Suppose that would be possible , like the ep800 does. Could be a helpful way to have it fit in a room.

Yes … to me they sounded fine in that orientation. You can order them horizontal … just have to call and request it.

But personally I think the 600 and 800 are overkill … if I were to get a redo, I’d save money and go with EP500’s. The 600s are too tall and when laid on their side they take up a lot of space … you really need a big room to justify them.

The 400 is sealed and is 400W nominal, 1000W peak. In its first incarnation, it had a triangular port on the upper right. A few months later, the port was gone in favor of improved group delay at the expense of less SPL.

Rich, you need to listen to an 800 in your room.

800 is even worse .. too tall and room gobbling on its side. Besides … it just two 500s glued together… perhaps with a bit of sauce in the dsp … better to just get 2 500s …IMHO

There's a 10Hz difference in depth. It doesn't sound like much, until you hear it.

I have both the 600 and 500. And as we discussed before the 600 actually goes lower then the 800. So, that said, perhaps I just haven’t heard the right material yet (if hearing is the right word as at these frequencies it;s more about feeling)

I’ll propose a EP500 and a buttkicker LFE might the combo to hit it out of the park … after all a good kick in the but might be just the nirvana your looking for.

Appreciate all the feedback everyone. I can get a SVS micro 3000 for about the price of the EP-175 after making a few calls yesterday. I have no idea if I can hear well down to 20 HZ. About 20 years ago, I used to rock 2 15s in the back of my car and loved the low frequencies.

I might pull the trigger on the micro 3000, but now I am wondering if I should get something a little bigger. EP 500 is really nice looking specs wise, but I have a hard time justifying to myself to spend that much money on a sub.

I don't think you need anything bigger than the micro. Trevor is likely the person I'd default to for a call on that.

If you decide to delve deeper into the 500, call and email Axiom, tell them where you're at and ask them to please scrub their costs and give you their best price.

BTW, if you want to be more assured of hearing, and feeling 20Hz, the 500 is the way to go because it is flat down to 20. This means your room will boost it to likely twice as loud (10 dB) as the micro.

Unfortunately, you can't possibly know unless you try both. So maybe consider an in-home showdown and a return.

Don't worry, Eblack. What you're going through is perfectly normal. I am an excellent example of such normality.

Lol that is alot of speakers. Its funny as now I have started to build one room I am starting to think of if my wife would want a nice music listening area for the upstairs of the house with M2s and a sub. I used to be very much into building music systems in cars when i was in my late teens and early 20s. Once i got into college and what have you it wasn't within my budget anymore, but now I have a little extra cash to spend and can get back into it.

There's just so many choices out there and I want to stay away from the One tone subwoofer like what comes with sound bars. I have found myself listening to more music now that i have speakers in the basement as I turn it on while working out in the other part of the basement area and the M5s sound so good for that.

Hearing wise, being as old as Mojo claims I am, I’d probably need at least a 10db boost to hear stuff below 30Hz … forget about 20. (Be interesting to hook up the function generator and test it.). That said I prefer not to eq anything …

In any case if you’re going 99% movies the accuracy of the sub matters less IMO. It’s there for the low end effects: the smash of impact, the boom of launch, the shake of an earthquake, and the eerie foreboding tone of dread which unconsciously sets you up for something bad. So, I’d bet most anything which claims to hit you’re desired low will be fine. Oh … and Boost to your liking.

If you were going mainly for music … accuracy is important and, personally, I’d find a way to get a EP500 or 400 into the room. Just MO.

Eblack, if you are listening to more music now, you do have a bit of a predicament. Axiom subs are very articulate and make music sound great. Even the 125 gives you growls and texture with a lovely mid-bass pop.

Users have reported on these boards that Axiom sealed subs are better in the music department than SVS. My buddy and I did a head-to-head of his ported SVS 1000 vs my 125v4. There was no question in either of our minds that the 125 was more enjoyable with music. Movies was a different story because the SVS went lower.

As for your wife, you'll want to experiment in the downstairs room with her first. Women are generally very sensitive to bass so she might not need a sub. Another tricky part is what kind of sound she likes. Some listeners prefer the more mellow sound of M3 over the more linear sound of the M2. The M3 also gives more bass. The M3 is more like vinyl and tubes while the M2 is more like CD and solid-state. The M3 is more like Tina Turner while the M2 is more like Norah Jones. The M3 is more like bourbon and cigar while the M2 is more like champagne and chocolates. The M5 is an orgy of all of them.

I love all the v4 in their own way.

Agree with you rrlev. Although I’m not a movie home theatre guy just yet, I think feeling the sounds/ low freq effects is what you want for movies. But in music I don’t think you want to feel it quite as much or at all in most cases, depending on the style of music you are listening too. Too much low freq can muck up the other sounds and be too much. This is obvious I know and I have limited experience with it but from everything I’ve read and watched a sealed sub and dsp for a quick reacting woofer should be the goal for dual purpose music and movie.

My two cents from the nosebleed seats.

So Tina Turner is my bedroom smoking cigars and drinking bourbon while spinning some vinyl amplified with some sweet tubes, ok got it. “ I better head up there, ima gonna head out…..Oh she’s got m5s up here!!!……”

I appreciate the input. I have decided to hold off on buying a sub until later this year. I am going to consider the ep 500 as the sub I want to get. I guess I will see if one pops into the b stock or refurb store over the coming months.

For sure there will be deals in 500s by the fall.

I took a long hard look at SVS subs many moons ago. The biggest seller for deciding on Axiom was in part the ability to have it blend with the other speakers. For a long time many sub makers had black, black and black. I had little interest if they provided no colour options or at least something other than one option.
A friend of mine ended up buying the SVS 'water heater' at the time. It pounds out sound well and was better than the EP350 we had for SPL and 'slam', but the EP350 was way prettier.

Well I guess the SVS sales made me pull the trigger on a micro 3000. They have their memorial day sale going on today and I was able to get a bstock micro 3000 for $650. Been looking at other subs, but this one made the most sense based on its small form factor which is mainly what i wanted here. I'll report back on how it sounds with the M5s once I get it. Thanks again for all the input.

Wow. Look at you go. Good for you!

I was perusing some of the older posts, and I came across this from a former SVS owner who went through four of them:

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/430837/re-paradigm-prestige#Post430837

Slimpikins hasn't posted for a while, but it would interesting to see what failed on all of them. I wonder if it's for the reason that Andrew covered in one of his older videos:

https://youtu.be/_IbJfwm2Vlw?t=143

Slim's amps suffered infant mortality. Slim now has twin 500s, a 600, an 800 - all v4. He also has a Bryston sub. These support Bryston Model T signatures with twin Anthem M1 amps. Sides are QS10s. For a center, Ian lovingly built him a custom M80HP which has no ports. He has a dedicated panel. He turns all this up very loud in his 10,000 sq. ft. living room as he merrily grazes throughout his gorgeous, self-built timber home chowing down on meats, cheeses and bourbon.

Finishes are Santos Rosewood on the Brystons, knotty pine which turns a lovely shade with age and black oak which is apparently stunning.

His whole house, right out to his self-built, in-ground pool, is like a disco.

With regard to what Andrew said, maybe it's because audio vendors don't know how to design and build switching power supplies. There are hundreds of thousands of switching power supplies, all over the planet, built by teams I managed that were designed, manufactured and tested for a 30 year life and harsh environmental conditions. We shipped them and never got back any returns.

BTW Eblack, if you read this and start to worry, all you have to do is play your SVS for 5 days at 80% volume. If it doesn't fail, consider it good for many years.

Hah the same can be said for many different electronics. Usually if they are bad they go bad quickly or within the first few years. I decided to keep the Micro 3000 and return the PC-2000 Pro. For my uses the Micro is more than good enough as it still gives good performance for the types of shows I watch. I watch more tv shows than movies. Yeah I might get some distortion and not have as much pressure in explosions for the movies I watch every now and again, but the Micro fits the space perfectly and puts out really great sound.

Not to mention it works wonderfully for music. Just wow. Been listening to the Cercle you tube channel a good deal the past week and the Micro is less boomy than the PC-2000. Watched the new Obiwan Kenobi show as well and the Micro does very well with the bass in that show. What I like most about the Micro is how well it blends with the speakers. I have limited space of where to place a sub and the micro I had more options. The spot its in I cant localize the sound and it blends nicely with the M5s. The PC-2000 you could tell the bass was coming from it. I dont know if its because the micro has dual opposing subs on it, but its pretty darn nice. I mainly got the PC-2000 as I wanted to see what I would be missing form the low end on a ported sub versus the small form factor. While I recognize I will be losing pressure and low end, for my uses, I am perfectly fine with that due to the small space I have to work with.

I dont know if its $900 nice, but for $650 I am more than satisfied with my purchase. Maybe when the sound bar in our living room goes I will build a sound system there and try an axiom sub.

Mojo's is slightly exaggerating .... Unless he has a new house. If I remember right ... his room was 30x30 (900sq ft) with a vaulted ceiling (huge by most standards). Call it 12,000+ cubic feet so so ... which is still 3x my 320 sq ft room (a puny 2,900 cu. ft in comparison). Think he needs all those sub just to fill-in/even-out the base.

BTW: I was once in a residential house that was built to impress with a 3 story great room that must have been 7,000 square feet (by eye I'd say 50'x150'x30'). That's not including the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd floor hall ways which opened into it. It had apposing fireplaces on the long walls and a 3 story bay window at the far end. My current house probably could fit inside that thing. Now try filling that 240,000 cu. ft space with sound!

I didn't know you work on switching supplies. At that volume I'd imagine that was your finial product. What company, if I may ask?

Can't believe they don't burn-in a least the electronics. Depending on the fail rate ... it must have cost them a fortune in returns and a lot of unhappy customers. I stopped buying Seagate hard drives for that very reason.

I think some of these audio companies have no freakin' clue how to engineer for mass manufacturing.

We engineered and manufactured electric substation automation systems. All in-house. I don't do that any more. In the 20 years I was doing that, I aged 40 years.

https://www.gegridsolutions.com/

I consulted with GE aerospace once. The tech lead was full of himself and would often overrule us on how to program the system. Several times I needed to send an message to the team to cover myself (I'd also put comments in the code when stuff like this happens). He didn't like it but it proved to be needed when he would blame me for performance or other issues. I could point back to the messages which stated that it would be the case. He didn't like that either. Others also had issues as he could do no wrong ... It was alway someone else's fault. This kind of stuff is more common then it should be. In my career, I can point to a dozen times where I needed to do this ... especially when management wanted a quick fix over a real design. But this guy was particularly memorable.

Andrew wasn’t kidding about the underwhelming subwoofer electronics warranty coverage. Here’s a few I found:

B&W 2 years: https://www.bowerswilkins.com/en-us/warranty
Hsu Research 2 years: https://www.hsuresearch.com/faq.html
KEF 2 years : https://us.kef.com/warranty-info
Paradigm 3 years: https://www.paradigm.com/en/warranty-information
REL 3 years: https://rel.net/customer-promise/
Velodyne 2 years: https://www.velodyneacoustics.com/pl/warranty-2/

At least SVS has a 5 year warranty. As someone who’s worked in the insurance for years, the last thing you want to hear is “post-claim underwriting” (i.e. we decide if you have coverage after we have your money).

Sounds like Mr. Incredibles day job

Actually, 2 years is not bad compared to some of the warrantees I've seen on stuff ... my LG TV was one year ... some stuff gives you only 2 or 3 months, The limited warrantees are the most dubious ...

You can skip the rest as it's just a repair story:

Had a sears washer with a 10 year limited warrantee. Stuff that could fail was cover for a year, maybe less (can't remember). Only one part had a 10 year warrantee ... something called the spider, a big cast part which held the drum.

So, In year 9 the washer's spider broke. I called it in and they told me that the part was cover but not the labor which was $700. To which I said "no problem, send me the part. I'll put it in myself". They insisted that they had to install it. But I pointed out that the warrantee had no condition stating that was the case ... just that the part was warranted ... The long and short of it was that service was a separate business unit which had to pay for the part. After a bit of talking they came and installed it at cost ... $300.

My washer and dryer are both 30 years old on Sep 12 this year. I've been told by those in the business to keep them going as long as I can. Apparently the new ones don't last.

We were a GE acquisition. The twenty-something GE MBAs from your neck of the woods who knew nothing of our industry came in to show us how to run things. It was a new manager playground for a little while until a few of us got together and chased their asses away.

Speed Queen still makes products that should last as far as washers and dryers go. Kind of nuts you have to spend more than $1k each to get 30 year old tech in a washer and dryer though.

if those MBAs were really smart they should have put you in charge! Then close the door of their corner office to surf the net & play video games … all the while making 2 to 3 times youre salary….

They're fine to use up if you still have them, but they're not something to seek out today. It's a small list of things that predate the cost cutting era: 1960's-1980's Mercedes; 1990's and 2000's GM and Ford pickup trucks; Panther-chassis Ford sedans; mid-90's to early 2000's Lexus and Toyotas; and 80s and 90's appliances.

Technology moves onward, and the G.O.A.T. (greatest of all time) is all found today, trickled down to the middle class. Even sport compacts are quicker than exotic cars from just a decade ago:

https://youtu.be/38IAgvasmnI

I can't find a Speed Queen dealer within 1000 miles of here.