Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Ceiling speakers for my Axiom Epic 60 - 500 setup?

Hello all, I hope everyone is doing well.
I am retiring my Yamaha RX-V3800 receiver, and going with a newer AVR that supports Dolby Atmos and DTS X.
I currently have the Axiom Epic 60 - 500 Speakers (7.1) and will probably be adding 4 ceiling speakers to go 7.1.4.

What ceiling speakers can I use that will compliment my current Axiom speakers?
Does Axiom have a recommended ceiling speaker to go with my QS8's?

Also, do I need a channel per speaker?
So, if I have 11 speakers (7.1.4) do I need an 11 channel AVR?

Thanks!

Yes, if you are not running an external amp you would need an 11 channel AVR.

I have the Axiom M3 ceiling speakers and have enjoyed them so far. There are others on this forum who think they are lacking. I've heard good things about the Paradigm ceiling speakers but I have not heard them personally.

Thank you @Canesfan27!
I guess I don't have to go with Axiom but have been happy with them so far.
Thank you for clarifying channels and mentioning the Paradigm option.

If you can go with on ceiling instead of in ceiling, you have a few Axiom choices. You could go with M2OW, M3OW or M5OW. The M5s play full range.

You'd have to mount them on the ceiling with the provided OW brackets.

glad your not recommending M100's on the ceiling anymore ... or did you just forget to list'em

M3ow's ceiling mounted with FMBs ...


haven't measured anything yet ... but I'm happy with the sound so far ... I'll start doing some real evaluations against mounting them flush at some point.

I would not suggest using the T brackets to support any on-wall on the ceiling., They are not made to hold weight that way. In the post above I had to request special inserts to screw the M3ow to the FMB. Axiom provided 3 inserts (see pict below) which allowed me to choose my bracket orientation. Depending on which way I wanted to tilt the speaker. The inserts are place so that the FMBs sit close to the center of mass of the speaker.

I can't recommend M100OW for Zack. I know he won't go for them.

I agree FMBs with custom inserts is the way to go...if you are too much of a pussy to take a risk with T brackets.

If I remember correctly you were pushing for the full floor model (don't think Axiom makes a M100ow). Guess if your ceilings are tall enough you can suspend them by chains.

Actually, it's not a bad idea Mojo ...when you build your next house think big!!
14.8.19 ... all M100s and EP800s ... none of this wimpy 11.4.8 stuff for you

Well, if I ever visit, I may need to take out some supplemental medical (for raining on-walls) ... as we all know your not you're not one of those

I know of one customer who hung M80s from the rafters. Ian has them hanging horizontally in his outdoor dance studio.

Yeah I'm quite a risk taker with audio gear. For the longest time, one of my rear QS8s was hanging via tie wraps from the ceiling.

Why didn't you mount the front M3s vertically?

2 reasons:
Axiom told me that M3’s could only mount on FMCBs that way (even then you need custom inserts to do it)
And more importantly, they are closer to the ceiling to keep them out of the projection.

Good to see that you have a very plausible defense for their acoustically non-optimized installation.

Are the tweeters pointing in or out?

Ill figure that out when i figure it out
Right now, because Axiom only put inserts in on one side, they are not imaged. Instead of sending them back a 2nd time (1st time was because they didn’t have any of the required inserts), ill put in some inserts myself … for now, i’m not aware of (not hearing) any detrimental effects being non-imaged.

I should add that i have not tested these for imaging (by listening to them as mains). In movies, I suspect that you get so involved, that it need not be perfect.

That said, I might not know what I’m missing if they were imaged properly.

Hmmm...I think I understand what you mean. One tweeter will always point in and the other out. Sorry. I wouldn't be able to listen knowing that. Maybe consider burning it down and starting over.

Think putting in the inserts might be the more cost effective solution .

Now if I ever put in the side heights (as per DTS and Auto-3d spec) I might have to put them in as pairs (tweeters-in then tweeters-out) or figure out some a way to hang them vertically (as inserts for FMCBs would be problematic in that case). I'll save that worry for when I buy that 48 channel prepro

For side heights, I've planned active Bryston Ts with dual 800s.

I am wondering what would be the performance difference for the Atmos height speaker, the in ceiling M3 and the on-wall M3 mounting on the ceiling.

Axiom told me that you could just take the woofer of the M3 out, then attach it to a stub.

The in-ceiling M3 doesn't allow you to aim to the MLP. So on-wall M3 may work just as good as the in-ceiling one.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are someone at Axiom is smoking crack. Read this and you'll feel the same way.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/axioms-newest-speaker-the-in-ceiling-m3

Ian prefers the M3OW mounted to the ceiling over the M3IC's tweeter alignment.

Mount the M3OW parallel to the row of seats and with no more of an angle of 15 degrees away from the row of seats with tweeters pointed out to the sidewalls.

Thanks Mojo as always.

In ceiling is more hidden and appealing, but for a dedicated HT room, that doesn't matter

There are a few on here that love their M3IC. I can't know for sure but I very much doubt anyone would hear a difference between OW and IC during a movie or music. If hidden ends worries about aesthetics, go IC.

ATMOS has specs for both top & height speakers.
The actual layout rules are a bit tricky but for the most part Tops point straight down and run overhead. They are recommended over heights. But since many have wiring in place (or perhaps to be compatible with DTS & Auro layouts) they started publishing specs for height layouts as well. Heights are mounted high up over the bed speakers (floor level speakers). I believe they are aimed toward MLP.

terminology wise, I think, this question is about Top surrounds.

I own both. Short answer… On-wall wins hands down over in-ceiling sound wise … not even close.
The only reason to consider an in-ceiling is esthetics IMO.

1 - I imagine if you’re going to get crazy…. You could mount a in-cabinet M3 (if they make them) in the ceiling …. (Note: I’m not a fan on their in-walls… although I’ve only heard them un-installed … so I may be diss’in them unfairly).

2 - tops point straight down

Mojo is right to a certain extent …. Once the movie is running a lot of ills will be overlooked …
That said … the sound difference between M3 ow & ic, IMHO, is huge.

Rich, can you hear the performance difference during movies or music?

Edit: answered above.

I am going with 5.1.2, so the 2 atmos speaker would be very close to MLP with 10 degree angle. It should be OK with the flush mount without angling it to aim to MLP. Am I right?

What is tops point straight down?

I think Rich means you'd hang them upside-down rather than flat on the ceiling.

UP side down with the onwall M3? That would look like two kites flying Wouldn't be wife-proved for sure.

Rich's wife loves them. Especially as she's hanging by them.

That's fine for the highs and lows. Some portion of the mid-range will be muddled.

Guess I’ll be able to answer that when I install a theater system in one of my bathrooms, hallways, or kitchen …
I’ll be sure to give you feedback when that happens

Sure but you might loose imaging being that close …I think the ATMOS spec has the tops like 30 to 55 deg left/right from MLP …

see ATMOS speaker placement guidelines

tweeter points down … basically Dolby specs that Top surrounds are not aimed … that said I think every room is different and you should experiment and do what sounds best …. spec’s were written to be broken (I.e. they are guidelines)

Rich, he means 10 degrees as you look up at IC installation. The line of sight is r and the angle is 90-theta in polar coordinates.

Think we should ignore the madman in the room …

That's what I said, Rock.

What? Isn't that what you meant? Woofer pointing to ceiling and tweeter to floor?

Glad you didn't forget about the hallways.

Think Mojo is attempting to be helpful here. Sometimes it is a bit confusing figuring out when he’s joking …. (At least speaking for my self …)

I never kid about polar coordinates.

He's talking about mounting IC and whether they are diffuse enough at a 10 degree angle such angle subtended by a normal sticking out of the listener's head and the hypotenuse sticking out of the forehead to the speaker.

The angle 3 minus 2:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/can-i-repurpose-back-surround-speakers-dolby-atmos

For 5.1.2, the top speaker is placed at 80 degree to MLP. So I think that on wall m3 should be fine. However for 5.1.4, front top and rear top will be 45 degree. If the M3 can't be angled towards the MLP, will it be too off axis?

Rock, have to be careful what plane you’re looking at (front to back, right to left, besides the more obvious … top down). Also have to read the spec and not just look at the pictures and make your best guess as to what it all means … they don’t always agree. It’s also possible for specifications not work with your room … so you need to compromise. Note some placements are specified in multiple ways which may also not be 100% in agreement.

It gets even better (read more confusing) when putting it all together with DTS-X and Auro-3d specs

Thanks Rich. It is beyond my capability to figure out the best setup. That is why I would like to ask suggestions from more knowledgeable people like you.

At the end of the day, enjoying the music and film is the ultimate goal.

Rock, I don't have an Atmos set-up so I can't be of much help. You need to decide if you're going 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. I've read .2 is pretty much pointless and .4 is awesome. I've also read you don't need to worry about sound quality up top.

All you're really looking for is some punch up top from lows and dispersion from the highs. You'll get that from the M3IC.

5.1.2 is better than 7.1 but 7.2.4 would be the best in terms of Atmos setup as far as I know. One upgrade at a time, that would be a feasible approach to me.

5.1 & 7.1 setups can be awesome…. I would not automatically say ATMOS is better …
For your tops and height surrounds to shine you need:
- ATMOS, DTS-X, or Auro-3d content
- and that content needs to have been mixed to take advantage of 3d effects and object placement.
The number of titles which do both are still small … especially if you eliminate titles which don’t appeal to you.

At the moment, I’d put my money into a great 5.1 or 7.1 system over spreading it out for mediocre 5.1.2 or even a 7.1.4 system … that said
If you have the money and are not making crazy speaker placement trade-offs… putting in a great ATMOS system is the way to go.

the number of surrounds you need is dependent on your room and the number of seats you want to have a great surround experience.

Then there's me. With my humble 4-channel.

Very humble

Just like me.

Agreed for the most parts Most video streaming service only provide either 5.1 or 5.1.4. Even though I have some local content with 7.1, but they are 1080p. To enjoy 4K, I have to go with the streaming content. In that context, my current 7.1 has less and less advantage over the 5.1. So a painless upgrade with least cost would be to change the 7.1 to 5.1.2, leveraging existing cabling for the top height speakers and getting a 7.1 4K receiver.

Rock, why can't you be more like me and just enjoy the humble set-up you currently have?

I know, there is no end to the audiophile journey.

I'm done, man. It's the end of the road for me.

We all know better Mojo … to paraphrase a Monty Python skit …

Just one more thin subwoofer, sir

You just came on the boards tonight to get a like.

“Whafer thin”!

Nicely played.

Yup and to make fun of you …. What more can you ask out of life

Kodiak … you mean subWhafer thin

Oh yeah, I know. That's why I gave you a like.

It's true though that I'm done.

Genius !!!! Subwhafer thin!!!! I love it!!!

Touché sir, touché.