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Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
#446971 12/21/22 05:03 PM
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Dr. Floyd Toole's e-book Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents)" dropped below $8 USD on Amazon. It's the first time I've seen it below $80 USD. Ever. 90% off!

Buy it as a Christmas present to yourself before he changes his mind!

(BTW, he'd still be making $5 in Kindle royalties even at this price if he's paid like other authors like myself, but his publisher might take a sizable cut out of that.)


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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #446972 12/21/22 05:51 PM
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It's really too bad one needs a Kindle or the app to read it. The app is buggy and readers have reported some of their books can't be opened.

I'm not buying a damned Kindle until it supports the formats of the Canadian library system.


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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #446973 12/21/22 09:54 PM
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I skimmed through the e-book. The text is all there, but the majority of the figures and graphs didn't transfer correctly. I'm willing to overlook that in an $8 purchase despite being integral to the messaging, but I'd be demanding a refund at its original price.

It would take a copy editor familiar with EPUB to correct all the formatting issues. I would charge a minimum of 160 hours, and the book would never recoup that despite the larger pool of interested buyers at the reduced price point.

That said, it's easily the most quotable audio book ever, and major ideas are backed by science journal citations. He cites his own work a lot, but his contributions are vast and significant. It's a shame most audiophiles won't read it, because it debunks cherished beliefs that were discredited decades ago.


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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #446974 12/22/22 01:17 AM
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Without legible figures and graphs, it's a POS! We shouldn't accept it at any price.


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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #446975 12/22/22 02:13 AM
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Ian probably has master copies in his safe. smile


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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #447012 12/24/22 08:17 PM
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After doing a full read, I see that the e-book is flawed. Too much of the content relies on what the figures and graphs are telling. So I wouldn't recommend the e-book until those issues fixed.

That said, I have some general take-aways from the book that are relevant to me.

1) The movie industry drives innovation in home audio, dragging the music and audio industry along kicking and screaming.
- Room problems with too much or too little absorption? Lack of imaging? Unsatisfactory spatial effects? Diffuse center image? Uneven bass across seating positions? Poorly measuring loudspeakers? Multichannel audio (5.1+ channels) solves everything.
- Stereo is fine if you’re the only person in the room and can optimize for that one seat.
- The center channel is the most important loudspeaker because it carries vocals and on-screen action.
- Overhead effects channels only matter for movies, and only for sound effects that are panning between channels.
- Only go beyond 5.1 if you’re trying to optimize for multiple seating positions in a large room.

2) Why measure loudspeakers? Fidelity equals listening pleasure, and better measuring speakers are more pleasurable to listen to.
- Frequency response is the best predictor of loudspeaker sound quality; price is the worst. Good loudspeakers have a flat listening window and smooth directivity as measured in an anechoic chamber with a Spinorama.
- Don’t trust all measurements. Waterfall graphs, impulse response, step response, group delay, phase, coherent wave forms, and comb filtering should be kicked to the curb because they’re subservient to the psychoacoustics of how we hear. We don't hear the flaws they purport to reveal.
- Big rooms requires big speakers to avoid audible distortion. Letting subwoofers handle the bass lets regular speakers play louder without distortion.
- Normally furnished rooms don’t need room correction software above 200-400 Hz. Pick better loudspeakers instead.
- Mono listening is most revealing of a loudspeaker’s flaws. We’re more forgiving as we add channels.

3) Good bass contribute to 30% of perceived fidelity.
- Small rooms are prone to bass issues, and subwoofers (in plural), bass traps, and bass management are part of the solution.
- Room correction software has little utility beyond fixing bass management issues. They tend to meddle in things that shouldn’t be meddled with.
- Golden room ratios and room shape are more bunk than science because they make flawed assumptions more suited for test tones than music.

4) Neutral loudspeakers don’t fix flawed recordings.
- There is a circle of confusion in the recording: until all mixing studio loudspeakers and mics are standardized and their audio engineers have perfect hearing and good taste, there will always be bad recordings.
- Tilt is the secret sauce of fixing uneven recordings: simultaneously raising the treble and decreasing the bass (or vice versa) to fix the tilt in the recordings.
- At lower listening volumes, use loudness compensation. We prefer volumes quieter than the original studio mix. Fletcher Munson curves are only statistical averages for large populations, so feel free to use tone controls; if it sounds right, it probably is.
- Differences in audio codecs require training to spot. Most sound transparent at high bit rates, and will be a non-issue with lossless streaming.

5) People buy audio gear for reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality.
- He spends very little time discussing electronics other than to mention that they are a solved problem and are transparent unless overdriven or poorly designed.

And in case you’re wondering, Floyd’s main system were the Mirage M1 (in Canada) and the Revel Salon 2 (today).

Last edited by Hambrabi; 12/24/22 08:45 PM. Reason: typo

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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #447013 12/24/22 08:42 PM
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Very nice summary!

I'm not sure i agree 100% with one or two items.

- Room problems with too much or too little absorption? Lack of imaging? Unsatisfactory spatial effects? Diffuse center image? Uneven bass across seating positions? Poorly measuring loudspeakers? Multichannel audio (5.1+ channels) solves everything...- Only go beyond 5.1 if you’re trying to optimize for multiple seating positions in a large room.

I'm assuming there are liberties with the exact words here specifically the phrase "solves everything".
Surround setups can help with imaging, poor centre dialogue, but uneven bass? bad non-linear speaker response? And only 5.1?
I've noticed a substantial difference in surround by going with 7.1 over 5.1. Uneven bass is slightly noticeable in our room as well and i plan on going to 7.2, something that Toole and the H/K group have long researched (2 is better than 1, 4 is best overall).
Nothing except a massive sound engineered sound board (maybe) can fix what bad speakers reproduce, not even 5.1 surround additions.

- Golden room ratios and room shape are more bunk than science because they make flawed assumptions more suited for test tones than music.

These ratios are theoretical and by math, are correct (sound follows the sciences of physics and math). However, for practical purposes, they are merely a starting point to designing a space.
Try using the golden ratio in a stereo setup in a basic rectangular room. It works quite well to define the sweet spot. I've tested that one out during very early blind listening tests. Again it is not exact down to say a millimetre, but puts you very much in the ballpark.

Some day i hope to have the time to read through all of his book as well, but WITH the figures!


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #447022 12/25/22 10:22 PM
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Deleted because I have an opinion but no science.

Last edited by Mojo; 12/25/22 10:29 PM.

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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
Hambrabi #447023 12/26/22 12:56 AM
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"Good loudspeakers have a flat listening window..."

The target LW flatness is a function of the radiation pattern of the speaker. You don't want an ALFR to have a flat LW because it will sound too bright and also the depth of the soundstage will collapse.

"Big rooms requires big speakers to avoid audible distortion."

Those who listen closer to the near field for a more intimate presentation or don't like bass, may not need big speakers.


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Re: Major price drop on Floyd Toole's ebook
chesseroo #447025 12/26/22 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by chesseroo
I'm assuming there are liberties with the exact words here specifically the phrase "solves everything".

[/i]
These ratios are theoretical and by math, are correct (sound follows the sciences of physics and math). However, for practical purposes, they are merely a starting point to designing a space.
Try using the golden ratio in a stereo setup in a basic rectangular room. It works quite well to define the sweet spot!

I don't think it's an understatement to say that Mr. Toole is disapproving of stereo. From my own experience, I prefer listening to stereo upmixed to DD 5.1 if given the choice.

But he literally spends 3 pages and several figures gushing about his omnidirectional Mirage M1's. I swear he was channeling Mojo and his LFR1100's.

Room ratios are fine if you're dealing with single frequencies and their harmonics (eg. 20/40/80/160 Hz or 30/60/90/120 Hz). Except music is from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, and we don't sit in the corner of a room listening to a mono loudspeaker sitting in another corner. So they're not a magic bullet, and you can still have good sound in a square room.


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