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Problems with the ADA amp
#446434 10/20/22 03:35 PM
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axiomite
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Just starting a new thread on the broader topic beginning with my own issues with the ADA1500 specifically, though may not be specific to the 1500 model.

Other parts of this discussion are in this thread:
https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/446433


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Problems with the ADA amp
chesseroo #446437 10/20/22 04:00 PM
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Background on my situation.

Took a bit to get the first ADA1500 after ordering new speakers this past year. Leaving aside the conversation on customer service (see previous thread link), when the new ADA arrived (January), all was well for a bit. Sometime around early May i noticed no sound coming from my left front drivers.
After some basic testing, it was determined one of the amp modules was not working.
Sent it back to Axiom.

After extensive time at Axiom, the amp came back (late August) checked and repaired (this first amp apparently failed in some manner that they had never seen before; i have no more specifics than that). When i opened the box and took the amp out, i heard something rattling. I popped the lid off to find what looked like a metal jig or maybe a heatsink loose inside but i couldn't see anywhere that it would have been attached. I sent a pic to Axiom and it turns out it was a piece of a shield on an inductor and that the amp was not usable. They figured the only way that could have detached was if the amp was dropped really hard. I'm a bit uncertain about this. Just how high would that box have to be dropped to have this part detach?
Or was it insufficient application of an adhesive from the parts factory?
Anyway, my original repaired amp was now headed back to Axiom....again.
On the upside, Axiom shipped a whole new one that arrived a couple of weeks later in EARLY October.

Here we are now in MID-October (only a couple of weeks after getting the new amp) and i have noticed an issue with the new ADA1500. There is a buzzing noise from all channels except for module 3 (presently hooked up to the centre channel) and maybe to a lesser extent module 4 (hooked up to the left rear channels of the LFR880).
This is an update from my earlier post in the previously noted thread in regards to how many channels in which this buzzing could be heard. I did a more thorough inspection last night assisted by the spouse.
Here is a sound bite of the buzzing (turn up your sound to hear it clearly). The first 7 seconds are recorded near the tweeters (a not untypical background hiss) and then the recording moves down to the woofers.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jpfzz9yym...rough%20LFR880%20rear%20channel.MOV?dl=0

NO OTHER ELECTRONICS EXCEPT THE AMP WERE TURNED ON AT THIS TIME.
THE BUZZING IS COMING SOLELY FROM THE AMP. I even disconnected the 12V trigger from the Denon to the ADA just to be sure.

Second, after swapping around speaker wires and determining that the sound was coming from pretty much most channels, i then opted to try and check for a ground loop hum in the only manner that i can; by changing the location of the amp plug in. Originally the amp was plugged into a quality power bar along with ALL other electronics, so obviously under this condition there is buzzing.
I then plugged the amp into the wall socket on its own.
Still buzzing.
One last thing left to try is to get a long extension cord and try a few other plugs even outside of the room (to be sure they are on another circuit), BUT, i should mention that the first ADA1500 we received did not have this problem, certainly not that i ever recall or noticed. When i first got the original ADA in January, i went to check and make sure every driver was working. I would think after 4 months with that one i would have noticed a buzz considering i've had this new ADA for only a couple of weeks and picked out the buzz sound quite quickly.

Now i'm left with a choice again; contact Axiom not knowing entirely if this is a ground loop hum specific to my home (IMO doubtful considering the non issue with the first ADA and 4 months of listening), or try to find ways to keep testing for ground loop hum issue by purchasing power cable ground lifts, etc.?
Quite honestly, i started poking around for other replacement options last night, perusing some info on other Class D amps such as ATI, Nord, Appalon, Buckeye.

That's the story.
An ADA saga that should have ended a very long time ago.
Is there something fundamentally wrong with the ADA design?
Questions, questions.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Problems with the ADA amp
chesseroo #446438 10/20/22 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rrlev
Chess,
I hear you … I'll be sending my ADA1000-8 in for service too and hopefully will not experience your repeated "return" loop. I’m also spending some time to make sure they will be able to reproduce the problem (which is taking way longer than I planned). I don’t want it returned as “not reproducible” or “must be a ground loop”.

My amp has a very low level buzz on all its connected channels 6 heights/tops. It’s loud enough to be unmistakable but low enough to be drowned out when the projector is on.

Note, not a ground loop ... first test I did. But while I was doing that I hit something interesting. If only one of the ADA inputs is connected to the preamp (two if the same ADA board) ...no buzz. If two or more channels were connected across amp boards ... it buzzed. This happened even if nothing was plugged into the prepro (even the power power cord)... But I needed reproducible proof without the prepro in the equation ...

I don't expect anyone to do this (even if you're an EE) ... but
After a few iterations, I ended up simulating the prepro by terminating the ADA inputs with a resistor (valued close to the prepro's output impedance) and tying all the input grounds together (didn't matter if I tied signal ground to earth ground). This seemed to reliably reproduce the buzz. I'll include that test cable when I send the unit in ... but just in case, I also took a few FFTs so they could see what I was getting here.

I'll send it in over vacation to minimize time without it.

Really REALLY good to know that i am not along with this.
I rather think your situation sounds identical to mine. I've heard ground loop hum before and there's a few things that are turning me away from this as the cause of the buzz. There would still be some ground issue BUT:
- why is it not coming through all amp channels?
- why did i not detect this issue with the first ADA we had? If the ground loop was specific to our house, hookup, setup, then it should have occurred with both amps no?

I wonder if there is some way to contact Axiom in tandem with two amps seemingly having the same issue. Check out the sound bite i provided and see if that matches your observation.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Problems with the ADA amp
chesseroo #446442 10/20/22 05:46 PM
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axiomite
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Originally Posted by chesseroo
Chess,
I hear you … I'll be sending my ADA1000-8 in for service too and hopefully will not experience your repeated "return" loop. I’m also spending some time to make sure they will be able to reproduce the problem (which is taking way longer than I planned). I don’t want it returned as “not reproducible” or “must be a ground loop”.

My amp has a very low level buzz on all its connected channels 6 heights/tops. It’s loud enough to be unmistakable but low enough to be drowned out when the projector is on.

Note, not a ground loop ... first test I did. But while I was doing that I hit something interesting. If only one of the ADA inputs is connected to the preamp (two if the same ADA board) ...no buzz. If two or more channels were connected across amp boards ... it buzzed. This happened even if nothing was plugged into the prepro (even the power power cord)... But I needed reproducible proof without the prepro in the equation ...

I don't expect anyone to do this (even if you're an EE) ... but
After a few iterations, I ended up simulating the prepro by terminating the ADA inputs with a resistor (valued close to the prepro's output impedance) and tying all the input grounds together (didn't matter if I tied signal ground to earth ground). This seemed to reliably reproduce the buzz. I'll include that test cable when I send the unit in ... but just in case, I also took a few FFTs so they could see what I was getting here.

I'll send it in over vacation to minimize time without it.

Wow, my earlier post was rife with errors.
Brain in a fog today.

Rewritten:

Really REALLY good to know that i am not alone with this.
I rather think your situation sounds identical to mine. I've heard ground loop hum before and there's a few things that are turning me away from this as the cause of the buzz. There could still be some ground issue BUT:
- why is it not coming through all amp channels?
- why did i not detect this issue with the first ADA we had? If the ground loop was specific to our house, hookup, setup, then it should have occurred with both amps no?

I wonder if there is some way to contact Axiom in tandem with two amps seemingly having the same issue. Check out the sound bite i provided and see if that matches your observation.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Problems with the ADA amp and DSP?
chesseroo #446463 10/24/22 06:27 PM
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axiomite
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Here's a list of the tests run today to isolate the exact conditions/setup under which the buzzing can be created (the short answer is, interaction between the amp and DSP is causing it):

Test #1 (all amp inputs removed; isolating the amp):
With all RCA, DC trigger, or any other input connections removed from the AMP (speaker wire outputs still attached to the speakers of course), there is NO buzz. That means the amp by itself alone is not creating the buzz.

Test #2 (only RIGHT channel amp inputs removed; isolating amp by channel to see if any RCA input to the amp causes all channels to buzz or if the buzz becomes channel specific)
I removed TWO of the RCA inputs from the Axiom DSP to the amp (the Right Rear and Right Front inputs).
With the two LEFT input connections hooked up from the DSP to the amp (LEFT Front and LEFT Rear), those two LEFT channels both have buzz, the RIGHT channels had no sound similar to Test #1.
The centre channel had no buzzing (note that the centre channel RCA input to the amp comes directly from the Denon AVR).
As such, the buzz becomes channel specific to the DSP-RCA input (LEFT or RIGHT but not CENTRE) into the amp.

Test #3 (removing RCA input to the DSP from the AVR to remove the AVR as the source of the electrical interference)
All RCA inputs for all channels from the Axiom DSP were plugged back into the amp.
I removed a single input (RIGHT channel) going from the Denon AVR to the Axiom DSP (Note that the Axiom DSP is turned on).
Still get buzzing but from ALL channels INCLUDING buzzing in the right speaker channels even though the Denon AVR is not connected to the Axiom DSP for the right channel.

Test #4 (remove the Denon to DSP connections completely to isolate the DSP and amp alone)
Removed all RCA inputs from the Denon AVR to the Axiom DSP. Removed the centre channel RCA input from Denon AVR to amp.
All DSP outputs to the amp are still connected.
Buzzing occurs in all channels which means the source of the buzz is coming from the DSP (or DSP-amp combination)!

Test #5 (shut off Axiom DSP power to eliminate concept of ground loop hum from wall power)
With the same conditions as in Test #4, I then completely unplugged the Axiom DSP from the wall.
So all DSP RCA outputs are plugged into the amp. There are no inputs from the AVR into the DSP. There are no inputs from the AVR to the amp. The DSP is receiving zero power and the ADA amp turned on.
Result: buzzing in all channels

Summary

The buzz condition comes under the conditions when:
  • Axiom ADA amp is turned on
  • Speaker wires are running to any speakers
  • The Axiom DSP has an RCA connection going from itself to the amp.
  • Axiom DSP power cord completely disconnected from any power socket.
  • There are no connections of any kind from the AVR into the DSP or the amp (however even when the Denon is connected to the amp with the centre channel input, it did not change the results of the buzzing, connected or disconnected).


Whichever channel left or right that is connected from the DSP to the amp will create the buzz in that channel. If the left channel from the DSP to the amp is not hooked up there is no buzzing in the left channel but if the right channel is hooked up at the same time there is buzzing in the right channel. As such, when both the left and right inputs from the DSP go to the amp then there is buzzing in all channels. When there are no RCA cables from the Axiom DSP to the amp there is no buzzing in any channel.
The only clean sounding channel is for the centre speaker. Under any or all of the previous conditions, the centre channel made no buzzing. The Denon AVR supplies the amp directly with a RCA input.

The bottom line is that when the ADA1500 amp is connected to the Axiom DSP, even when the DSP has no power and no source inputs, the mere RCA connection between the two causes a buzzing through the speakers when the amp is powered up.

Last edited by chesseroo; 10/24/22 07:10 PM.

"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Problems with the ADA amp and DSP?
chesseroo #447017 12/24/22 08:57 PM
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axiomite
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Summary of the final conclusions.

On ADA1500 #3.
Have a second DSP sent to me to rule that out as a cause of the buzzing.
Also had XLR cables sent to me (the new, second DSP has XLR and RCA inputs.

After extensive internal ground cable swaps in the ADA and other suggestions by Engineer Andrew, likely the cause is a ground loop hum. It is oddly specific to the ADA and no other equipment, old or new, that i've had used over the years. In fact, of all the gear i've tested over the years, this is the first and only piece of equipment that is displaying a ground loop hum.
I can't say i'm 100% convinced, but using the XLR connectors instead of RCA definitely ended the buzzing.

I'll live with that most likely hoping the amp is ok and if i sell in the future, i'll sell it with the XLR connectors.
Just waiting for a final response from Axiom on it and the probably have the original DSP shipped back and then all should be done.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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