Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Just purchased M50s, My God - do I need a new amp?

I am just beginning to build a decent audio system and I have some crucial burning questions and am looking for some expert advice.

I just purchased the M50ti’s. Although they are a far sight better than what I had before, I must admit that I am a little disappointed with imaging, and the high-end is not as present and clear as expected. Bass is a little boomy. I have done a great deal of experimentation with speaker placement (How far should the speakers be from the wall?)

Also, although I am told that the speakers are very efficient, they don’t really seem to shine until played at significant volume. It seems that at low volume the drivers aren’t really kicking in and various frequency ranges are missing. The problem is that I live in an apartment complex (in a unit of modest size - ~10x20 living room, carpet and high ceilings) and so I want good bass, but don’t want it to be boomy, and I need accurate sound reproduction at low volume. Should I be looking at bookshelf speakers such as the Axiom M3ti’s (although I am told they are actually less efficient than the much larger M50ti’s!) or does this all point to my amplifier?

Okay, so I admit: I am using an Optimus STAV-3590 receiver. It’s rated at 150w/ch. It’s got a bass boost (is this a bad sign?) which I am NOT using. Treble control is maxed, bass control is midlined. The goofy AV effects are all turned off.

I am familiar with the concept of Garbage-In Garbage-Out and am wondering: am I completely betraying these speakers? Should I even bother debating over whether to upgrade the 50’s to 60’s or replace them with M3ti’s before replacing my amplifier? I realize that I am sorely in need of an amp upgrade, but just how much of a difference am I going to notice? If I buy a NAD amp am I going to wet my pants and praise the gods?
This brings up a host of questions about just how much effect an amplifier has on certain performance aspects – please educate me.

My burning questions:

Low-power amps: Are they better at low volume?
It seems that many consumer-grade amps come in 80w, 100w per-channel or more – this seems to be a brag-factor for many folks. I don’t need the extra power for high volume due to my current apartment-living situation, but I’d like to allow some room in case I move into a house one day. I was surprised to see that NAD sells a lot of amps rated below 50w per channel. With efficient speakers such as the Axiom’s is this sufficient for practical use? And will a lower-power (quality) amp provide more accurate reproduction at lower volume? Will my speakers “kick in” at a lower volume? Will a better amp with a higher power rating also perform better at low volume? What power range should I be looking for?

Just what are an amplifier’s effect on imaging? It seems that the speakers should play more of a role in this facet of reproduction. With a quality amp will these speakers “disappear”?

Am I going to notice better high-end with a better quality amp? Will bass be less boomy?

Considering that my budget is very modest (the speakers were a stretch), what recommendations would you make on a good pre-owned amp for under $500? I am tempted to buy a simple quality amplifier/receiver for music and purchase a separate AV amplifier for home audio. That way when Dolby releases a new standard I won’t have to chuck an expensive integrated amp. I would like to build a home theater system but am much more concerned with a quality music reproduction than high-quality HT. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Scotti, it's a bit unusual to hear your report about the M50s, but a new receiver or amplifier should have no effect whatever on the matters you've discussed. Within its power limitations( which should be more than enough) your present receiver is fine.

Although the power of your receiver is being touted as 'pretty good', you are right to think about the rest of the receiver and its innards/build quality/technological quality.
I had a $1500 Technics system from 10 years ago that could not hold a candle to the new Onkyo DS797 that i recently bought. The Onkyo actually made my old Technics speakers just come to life (as much as they could). I can't even begin to explain the difference that changing the receiver made. Literally night and day.
I have to add that i CANNOT say the same thing about any other component i've changed in my system!! Not even the Axiom speakers (my old technics speakers were 6ohm bookshelves so making a comparison to M60s isn't right but other than the boominess and slight scratchy upper sounds they were far better than i ever realized).

However, to rule out your receiver as a garbage in/ garbage out component, head down to your local big box store like Best Buy, Future Shop, etc., and pick up a $500 Sony or Yamaha receiver and bring it home to test it out. If the receiver doesn't make much of a change you can always bring it back a day or two later for money back credit. I've done this a couple of times to test out cd and dvd players before committing a permanent purchase.
Of course you may want to look into other more simple fixes first just to be sure it isn't something simple like wires hooked up in opposite polarity, etc.
In my limited experience with these Axioms so far, they sure are not friendly to bad or 'hot' recordings or low quality peripherals. It shows, it really shows.

On that note, several people have asked similar questions in the forums lately about the same topics you are interested in (such as how much power do i need, what are good brand name receivers in xx$ range, how far should i place my speakers from the wall and are other people using the M50s finding they are boomy, etc.). Try doing some more general searching on the forums and you should find alot of answers to your questions.
The forum readers may also help point you to some specific links as well.

I had a not-too-dissimilar experience when I bought my pair of M40s and broke them in on my parents' Technics system. They never quite sounded "right" until I brought them home to a better receiver. It turns out that Axiom towers are more revealing than I expected, and were unforgiving of cheap electronics.

The M50s I auditioned didn't sound like what you're describing at all...and they played pretty darned loud in the store with minimal power.

I would take chesseroo's suggestion and run with it. A decent Sony/Yamaha/Pioneer/Onkyo receiver should tell you whether or not the M50s belong in your home. Not only that, it should be more than adequate for both music and HT.

If you're worried about a new Dolby format in two years to prevent you from taking the HT plunge now, don't. Hollywood is actively churning out an obscene amount of material on 5.1, including older movies that likely can't be remastered into anything better (Die Hard, Godfather, James Bond). While EX titles may become more common in the next few years, the difference isn't that impressive, and 6.1 receivers are becoming commodity items anyway ($500 US price range). It will be at least a decade before Hollywood (and consumers) are ready for the "next generation" of home theater sound.

Hello scottilad,

I'm sorry to hear you find the M50s "boomy"; they shouldn't be, but I suspect it's a combination of the standing waves in your room, which cause areas of excessive bass reinforcement (and areas where you'll hear deficient or non-existent bass). Think of your room as "the forgotten component" before you rush out to try new electronics.

The closer speakers are placed to room surfaces--walls, corners, etc.--the greater the bass reinforcement. Try moving them out from any walls, and also try shifting where you sit by a foot or two. Usually some combination of moving the speakers and/or your listening chair will yield a reasonable compromise between fairly smooth, non-boomy bass, and room decor.

Are you certain the bass boost/"loudness" button on the Optimus is off?

In terms of imaging, how far away do you sit? With tower speakers, I find you have to be at least 12 feet back to get the imaging to really lock in properly.

I'll answer some of your other questions later re NAD and its power ratings.

Regards,

In terms of imaging, how far away do you sit? With tower speakers, I find you have to be at least 12 feet back to get the imaging to really lock in properly.

alan,
how far back do you feel you should be from the m3's or m22's as a general rule to get the imaging to lock?

Found this on another forum:

In Reply to: Just purchased Axiom M50's - My God do I need a new amp? posted
by scottilad on July 26, 2002 at 12:56:23:

IMHO, you are using a bright speaker, and unless you turn up the volume to compensate for the fletcher-munson effect of low frequency loss at low volumes, this is what you get.

Also, the lack of a proper crossover on the midrange driver, An Axiom trademark, can cause some untideyness in the midrange.

A NAD amp may do the trick, they are rolled off and muffled sounding, but I would recommend and amp that is both rolled off and a generous in the bottom end.

A Jolida 1703 hybrid will do the trick. Jolida recommends this hybrid for bright speakers.

It has a big bottom end, and is rolled off on top, just what you need.

It is a TUBE mosfet hybrid,, cheers

I'd like to thank everyone for their posts.

Well, it has been an interesting couple of days. After much obsessive-compulsive fussing about, I have achieved a much better sound and learned a great deal in the process. Here's what I've learned thus far:

1) I had no idea that positioning was so crucial with tower speakers of this size. My room is 11x18 with high ceilings, and my listening area is on the long side of the room facing the opposite side. So I've only 8ft between my ears and the speakers, and after much repositioning the speakers are: 6ft apart and slightly towed-in; 1 foot from the back wall; Canted slightly upward (I mounted the floor spikes in the rear and the rubber feet up front - big difference). Imaging is much better, but with my room layout there is most likely a limitation to the kind of soundstage I'd like to achieve.

2) The bass was boomy since, being the neophyte that I am, the speakers were too close to the wall.

3) Break-in time is not a myth. The speakers have opened up considerably - the midrange and high-end have both increased considerably.

4) My amp is not as poor as I thought. As a test I brought home a $500 Yamaha AX-596 amplifier. What followed was something my girlfriend will surely never forget - three hours of cable switching and playing the same song over and over relentlessly. I used Jesse Cook's Gravity as a demo. The Yamaha resolves some detail in the upper midrange better, but overall sounds a bit thin. I found myself wanting to turn the volume up constantly. The Optimus, on the other hand, produces a fuller, more enjoyable sound (most assuredly colored). Call me philistine, but I think I prefer the Optimus (for now...) Perhaps a Jolida or some such crazy tube amp some day.

So it has been an enriching educational experience. Although I am much happier with the 50's, after reading various posts I am considering going with the 60's - the dedicated midrange must surely make a difference. My only concern is that they may be too big for my room (the web page mentions a large room), ie too bassy or they may need to be placed even further away from the wall. Any comments on this? Thanks for bearing with me, folks...

Hi scottilad,

A few more answers to your many "burning" questions:

No, a lower-power or better-quality amp will not provide more accurate reproduction at low volume. You are experiencing a trait common to all human hearing--our sensitivity to low bass frequencies dramatically decreases at low listening levels.

The Fletcher-Munson effects referred to in a later post describe these effects, named after the researchers who investigated them. That's why Yamaha and some other early electronics manufactures included the so-called "loudness" control: as you decrease the volume, the loudness control gradually boosts low bass to compensate for our hearing losses (of bass) at low volume. It more or less works, but you can compensate by simply using the bass control on your receiver. Just boost the bass a bit (or reduce it) at low listening levels. "Loudness" buttons engage a fixed overly-generous bass boost and some treble boost. They're not very useful. A continuously variable separate "loudness" control can be quite useful.

Paradoxically, the smaller the speaker enclosure, the less efficient the speaker is and the more power it requires.

NAD has used "loose" power supplies for years. They are able to deliver up to 6 dB greater output for a second or two (or less) to handle sudden bursts of music without distortion, but can't deliver sustained continuous power. It suits the nature of a lot of music (but not all, especially compressed pop or rock music). Nor are NAD amps rolled off.

Apart from rare boneheaded engineering choices, most electronics these days are remarkably similar in performance. It's the last place I'd look for significant differences, although I've never reviewed an Optimus amp. Most of these amps are OEM'd by the same manufacturers in Taiwan, Japan or China, and when other factors are kept the same, they'll perform in similar fashion.

As long as stereo separation is maintained in the amp (and it always is these days) an amplifier has no effect on imaging. It's all in the speakers, no matter what you read in some of the "tweak" magazines.


Tube amps are a different breed. Subject to wild variations in frequency response, generous distortion, and interactions with the impedance curves of speakers, a tube amp is quite unpredictable. They can sound perfectly fine (and I've heard Jolida amps sound very pleasant), but performance begins to deteriorate the moment they're turned on, as the tubes age and their characteristics change. If you want to put up with that, fine, but an amp should simply be a "straight wire with gain" and not intrude or color the audio signal.

If you want greater midrange clarity, consider moving to a pair of M60ti's or M22ti's, the latter used with a subwoofer.

duff: I find listening from about 7 or 8 feet away is excellent in my room with the M22ti's. Space them apart about the same distance or a little less.

Regards,