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Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Axiom
#47189 06/01/04 05:12 PM
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hobbyist
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I doubt anyone other than speaker manufacturers can tell you the relative significance of the figures you are looking at. I also doubt it is easy to quantify in dollars what it costs to achieve a flatter response curve. You haven't said if cost is a factor, you just seem to have picked out 3 speaker lines and thought if fair to compare them on statistics. I agree it's a way to separate the wheat from the chaff but without listening under EXACTLY THE SAME conditions all the statistics become less meaningfull. Many people consider speakers1/2 the price of SLIGHTLY superior speakers a bargain. That's a question you have to answer for yourself.

Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47190 06/01/04 06:32 PM
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axiomite
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abcd,
It has been a long time since you last posted. Welcome back.

In reply to:

the advice varies even on the same topic with the trust this, then don't trust the very same thing.



One has to personally decide whether the source of that information is credible and then rule out the 'advice' that is conflicting as untrue or invalid. At some point a person has to believe at least something someone tells them if they trust the teacher as credible in their knowledge.
No one doubts that fish can swim. It is proven fact. Open up enough biology textbooks and you will see that fish can swim, information based on simple research. Now if a fish forum had some poster that refuted that without proof (a subjective opinion) who would you believe? You might even have 10 ppl on the fish forum that tell you one thing and 10 that tell you another. Sorting out the correct information has to come from a variety of credible sources, period.
Certainly there are opposing opinions especially on forums where you have industry experts, affliated experts, enthusiasts and newbies. So who do you believe?
I think the Axiom forum members do an excellent job at not only posting their advice or experience, but also links to other information and ppl to contact regarding technical audio or HT questions for the enthusiasts search for knowledge.

A perfect example from some recent threads on a common topic:
Question:
What gauge speaker wire should i use for a 35 foot run to my surround speakers?

Typical forum responses
{subjective} You should use 14 ga Monster cable b/c it is what i use and it works better than generic.
{subjective #2} You should use 10 ga b/c otherwise you will have signal degradation and your mids will get muddy.
{subjective and objective} This depends on your speaker impedance. You should use 16ga wire for 6 or 8 ohm loads but should consider a 14ga wire if you have 4ohm surround speakers. See this link here where this industry expert did the math for wire loads and run lengths. You can also check out...or email the speaker company...etc.etc.

Note how all 3 responses have valid (objective) and invalid (subjective) information but ultimately with more than one source of information, the most correct information can be determined. Of those three responses, which one provides the most confidence for answering the question properly?

Personally i like to converse with those who have a good mix of credible sources for their information. Industry experts are one source but can be biased so beware (e.g all cables sound the same and here's why... EXCEPT for ours because...). Audio magazines can have some good subjective descriptions for equipment and usually give factual information on technology (e.g. how does dolby digital work?) but also may be biased in their advice (e.g. Paradigm xx brand is way better than B&W brand yy). Individuals on forums have their own preferences so also carry a bias in SOME advice like on what speakers sound better than others but this again is referring to the subjective opinion and not mathematical, phyisical or other scientific facts which can be provided by individuals and are NOT a subjective opinion. These facts can be reviewed from other credible sources.
At the present time the closest thing humans have to objective information is science so i prefer that as a basis for deciding what sources i deem as credible. Has this source backed up any of their statements with a carefully thought out and peer reviewed evaluation?
Sound and audio is not magic. It can be explained by physical and human behavioural concepts.

As for scrutinizing accuracy, the audio world generally accepts a flat response curve as 'accurate' sound. IF accuracy in sound is the goal to achieve, then a flat response curve should be the holy grail.



"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47191 06/01/04 07:22 PM
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E
buff
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E
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Excellent post chesseroo.

Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47192 06/02/04 03:00 AM
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Well done, Chess... and a lot more focused and less ranting than your posts of late... maybe the break in the rain did you some good?

Bren R.

Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47193 06/02/04 03:15 AM
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axiomite
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Minor lamentations over the dreary downpour and contents therein often termed 'particulate matter of consequence" and how they severely deter the normal functioning of biological processes.

Is this a Winnipegan only evening?
Certainly a first. At this exact moment, only BrenR, sidvicious and myself are online.
Coincidence or no?

Ok, coincidence it is.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47194 06/02/04 04:31 AM
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aficionado
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Well thank goodness for the break in the rain. The crops were starting to suffer badly....that and it was keeping me off the golf course.


"Chickens don't clap."
Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47195 06/02/04 04:47 AM
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connoisseur
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In reply to:


Another of the best sounding speakers in the world...
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/920/index.html
This is its response curve...
http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/WILFIG5.jpg




funny, during my speaker search a local shop in town had those 'WATT's', the guy wanted me to hear "the best speaker on earth" to compare to what I was checking out... well we only put in my Rob Zombie CD for a few minutes... but they just were bottoming out and sounding like ass really, hehe


Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47196 06/02/04 12:38 PM
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In reply to:

funny, during my speaker search a local shop in town had those 'WATT's', the guy wanted me to hear "the best speaker on earth" to compare to what I was checking out... well we only put in my Rob Zombie CD for a few minutes... but they just were bottoming out and sounding like ass really, hehe



It's amazing they've sold some many over the their, what, 20 year life-span. Must be a lot of deaf or stupid people out there.


Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47197 06/03/04 06:17 PM
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shareholder in the making
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Nah, those people aren't deaf or stupid. They just tend to buy into other people's opinions on how good (or bad) a speaker is without trying to determine it for themselves.

Re: NRC data show Energy & Paradigm better than Ax
#47198 06/03/04 11:05 PM
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In reply to:

Nah, those people aren't deaf or stupid. They just tend to buy into other people's opinions on how good (or bad) a speaker is without trying to determine it for themselves.




I guess you can make that statement about any speaker, Axiom's included, no? Unless you're saying that Wilson's really are bad, and folks are just believing others that say they're good...

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