Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler New Products? A Question For Ian, Amie and/or Alan

I was just reading a post from last fall where Ian was mentioning Axiom's work toward a new/larger sub. This is very interesting and I am very curious. I recognize that information regarding new additions to your product line may be kept secret... but maybe you could tell us when to expect an announcement about any new products; whatever they may be. It'll give us all something to look forward to.

Some suggestions:
- the new bigger sub sounds great (with a servo for control/low distortion)
- wood veneer 'anniversary series' m80's
- m100's (just dreaming)
- outdoor speakers
- package deals: maybe with outlaw amps (or even better... some Canadian amp company. (Forgive the patriotism). How about setting something up with Rogers Video... 10 cents toward Axiom Speakers with every movie rental... who needs air miles anyway.
- a free Elvis wig with every purchase

Thanks Guys
Curious Rob in Ottawa

I'd skip the Elvis wig, but I'de like the cool white leather jacket with the blue rhinestones on it.

Of course, I'd need to order the "skinny Elvis" version. I could probably use one from his later days as a parachute.

parachute? I thought it was a bedspread, myself. You know, he woke up in a cold, sticky sweat one night and the thing stuck to him. Unable to peel it off, he made the best of it and had a seamstress add rhinestones and tassles all over it.

M45Ti
I'm hoping Axiom offers an M45Ti, Same cabinet as the M40, but with a 5.25" driver to compliment the 6.5" driver.

M45 ST 6.5" driver, 5.25" driver and a supertweeter good for up to 45 KHz +-3db, upgraded capacitor/resistor

M3ST
an M3 offered with a supertweeter good for up to 45 KHz +-3db, upgraded capacitor/resistor.

An ST version of every model, the M80 with a 1" Titanium tweeter and a supertweeter rolled off at 20KHz on the bottom end.

45 khz?is that for dogs?....ron

The only things I can think of off the top of my head is real wood finishes, and nicer binding posts.

As far as a new model goes, perhaps a bigger, beefer bookshelf speaker such as the Veritas 2.1, a real "flagship" bookshelf.

What's your objection to the binding posts? Just curious--I thought mine were pretty nice. I like the fact they include a wrench with the speakers, even if it is plastic.

As there is nothing wrong with sound of the lineup. It covers all the ranges. I only have esthetic changes:

- rounding off the corners verticle corners...giving it a nice sleek look almost B&W Naulilus 'ish

- powder coat black or white alu drivers

- change the rubber color driver to white

- change of front baffle color from the rest of the faces. ie gray front baffle...the rest is warm cherrywood

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45 khz?is that for dogs?....ron

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Only if SACD and DVD Audio are only for dogs.

What if it turned out that the m45 wasn't as good as the M50? I'm sure the price difference between the two would be minute.

I'm sure there are folks who'd prefer one to the other. I sold my M50s. I'd give a pair of M45s a twirl, especially a pair of M45 STs.

The current binding posts aren't all that beefy, and my bananas don't hold very tight in them. I've actually switched to spades because of it. The binding posts on the Veritas I had at home were much, much nicer.

Oh...I almost forgot...nicer grills. They're really flimsy.

I know all these things are mostly cosmetic. The speaker themselves sound great, and I don't know enough about audio to make any engineering suggestions.

About the 45kHz thing. There are people in the world that believe that even though the human ear can not hear above 22kHz, a speaker that can play to 45kHz still sounds better. Sounds like a load of audiophile crap to me, but I have never experienced it. One speaker I can think of that does it can be found here:
http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/home/utopiabe/microbe.htm

The JM Labs mini utopia you referenced are great speakers. Here's the Frequency Response plot for that speaker:



There are some other very high end speakers which also use supertweeters, Tannoy, Harbeth, VMPS, PSB Platinum Range speakers, Coincident ... you may recognize some of the greatest speakers out there.

I guess the theory is that, even though we may not be able to hear it, there may be some inaudible charateristics that affect the way that we interpret/recieve the sound. Or, it may be that, even though we can't hear above 22kHz, a speaker that can play frequencies above that amount is sure to be able to reproduce the frequencies we CAN hear without strain, and as such, the extreme frequencies are experienced as naturally as possible.

But what do I know.

Preserves the amplitude of fundamental harmonics, which are well within the average person's hearing range.

Here's a white paper on the subject:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:uicyBsZzhysJ:www.tannoyna.com/professional/pdf/wp_wideband.pdf+why+supertweeter&hl=en

Somehow I doubt that many people can hear over 16000 Hz, much less 22000 Hz... And I've always seen it as 20kHz, anyway.

Just nitpicking.

Fascinating thread.

What types of instruments (or sounds) would produce energy in that beyond audibility range? I mean, are we talking about harmonics created by cymbal crashes or what here? Is there a specific example of a type of sound or a type of instrument whose reproduction would be enhanced by the ability of the speaker to produce those signals from 22k-45k Hz?

And are the other links in the typical audio chain either deliberately or theoretically limited in conveying signals at those frequencies? That is, even if I had a super-tweeter, would a system comprised of "typical" audio components benefit, or would you need to upgrade to esoterics to really hear the difference?

Just because a manufacturer (like Axiom, for instance) only *rates* speaker frequency response up to 20k Hz, does that necessarily mean that the extant tweeter is incapable of flat response even higher? Is there a theoretical limit on frequency response based on the design characteristic of a dome tweeter?

Yes, I AM too lazy to do my own research, but y'all started it.

You probably can't hear anything above 15 kHz. Nevertheless, it makes an audible difference in the range you can hear. Cymbals provide approximately 40% of their energy above 20 kHz. The violin and oboe provide substantial musical energy above 40 kHz and the triangle puts out substantial musical energy at 100 kHz.

Hi Tom

That's the beauty of SACD and DVD Audio - these formats put out energy in the supertweeter range.

Here's the response graph for the Axiom M80Ti, note the steep drop off just before 20 kHz.

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the triangle puts out substantial musical energy at 100 kHz

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I rock out to cymbal all the time... little did I nkow that I wasn't enjoying all that musical energy. DAMN THESE HUMAN EARS OF MINE!

On a side note, 2X6 said, scientifically, with graphs and other supportable data, what I was trying to say without the benefit of steeped and esteemed knowledge about hearing and harmonics. Thanks, 2X6, for cutting through my B.S.

Capn Picard, I thought you said it all just fine.

you know al this talk of flimsy grills and not-so-great binding posts can really worry a prospective owner like me ;_;

I can only speak for myself...but I'm being REALLY nit-picky. I wouldn't trade my Axioms for anything!

Daphoid, the gold 5 way binding posts on my Axioms are just fine. I use most of them with banana plugs, others with bare wire. Not only never had an issue, but thought of the binding posts as top quality. So has every reviewer I've read.

As to the speaker grills, they are also fine. All of mine are sitting in the closet, safely wrapped. They are not flimsy, they are nicely framed and use what appears to be high quality whatever grills are made of.

First thing I do when I get some Axioms set up is discard the grills. the speakers look and sound better without them.

Daph, don't let the little stuff put you off.

Daph, one more thing - Axioms are giant killers - they routinely outperform much more expensive speakers.

My suggestion for supertweeter equipped Axioms is in the hope that Axiom can not only blow away speakers in the $2000 price range but in the $4,000+ price range as well.

Look at the prices for the supertweeter equipped Tannoy, Harbeth, JM Labs, VMPS, Coincident speakers - nose bleed territory. I want Axiom to offer this kind of performance in a sub $1000 speaker. That's all.

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My suggestion for supertweeter equipped Axioms is in the hope that Axiom can not only blow away speakers in the $2000 price range but in the $4,000+ price range as well.

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Well, you could always do what the guy from Oh! Ntoob Loob or whatever does with solid state CDPs, buy up Axioms, replace drivers and rebrand/resell them.

Bren R.

That's nice Bren. Actually, the Marantz CDP is the basis for 2 upgraded and modified products, the Heart 6000 and Ah! 4000 with tube output sections, upsamplers, etc. Both of these units sound much better than the Marantz they are based on.

As to upgrading Axioms, the point of this thread is for posters to make suggestions regarding new Axiom products and how Axiom can make better Axiom speakers.

I'm sure this wasn't lost on you, however, it's also clear you couldn't restrain yourself from putting folks' ideas down, because after all, Bren, aren't you are one of those guys who already knows it all?

now, now kids....I know that Bren has been gone for a bit. But. let's play nice at least till he can have a chance to read all 700 posts he missed.

daphoid-

no worries man.. i also find the binding posts to be more than adequate. they hold my banana plugs fine, and are even set-up for bi-wiring or bi-amping. you can insert bare wire into the terminal flange, but i would use the banana plugs for easier removal and placement.

as far as the grills, they are good, but not the best i have ever seen. especially if you are getting the tower speakers, the grill itself is long(2-2 1/2ft) and can seem 'bendy' or 'wobbly' once off the speaker.. but, dont let that deture you.. once the grills are secured onto the speaker(which the plugs are very tight and secure) they are solid as a rock.

like someone said, we mentioning this kind of stuff is being very nit-picky. these are awesome speakers, and i havent doubted my decision to get them one bit. and i never even auditioned any, i bought them completely off word of mouth and internet praise.. and i couldnt be more happier with my decision.

bigjohn

"The violin and oboe provide substantial musical energy above 40 kHz..."

Since I play oboe I guess I can comment on this point. I must say that for the the oboe to be reaching into the 40kHz range, you would likely be playing in the 3rd octave B flat and greater range. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems more in the range of the piccolo. Fortunately, most music for oboe is not primarily written in the 3rd octave. Plus I can't really recall the last time I experienced "substantial musical energy" coming from an oboe. A trumpet or piccolo maybe, but the oboe doesn't have quite that amount of projection. Just thought I'd add my $.02 from my 11+ years of playing the instrument I enjoy so much.

Spock,

2x6 wasn't talking about the fundamental notes -- which are what is written on the page. Notes produced by woodwind instuments are composed of harmonics stacked atop one another. Some of that acoustic energy is in a range well beyond human hearing.

pmbuko, thanks for clearing that up. Hmm....makes me wonder if somone was to use a dog whistle on a song, would there still be some who would complain that their speakers aren't producing the accoustic energy projected by a dog whistle? Plus your dog would never forgive you for such a thing.

Hi ST. Do not put your oboe down for the dog whistel! One of the things that most speakers have great difficulty reproducing is the real sound of horns, from tubas to trumpets. What's missing? The BLATT, the rich harmonics which make a horn sound real. I'm hoping for more BLATT - more realistic music from Axioms - Axioms which outperform the $5,000 speakers. Just a hope.

When you say "BLATT", are you refering to the sound of attack from horns? If so, then yeah, I can definately see where speakers would have trouble producing the precise amount of attack. I'd be interested to hear how much of a difference it would make. Oh and don't worry, I don't want to learn how to play the dog whistle (penny whistle maybe). An instrument that plays (for all we know) one note would get really boring.

That's why I've taken up the Kazoo. One note penny whistles are just so limiting.

I don't know whether the blatt is the attack or the harmonics. I know the blatt is most intense during the attack, but I don't know whether it is a function of the attack or what ... I just know it is rare that speakers capture this effect.

My M60s have a lot of BLATT! Arturo Sandoval, David Sanborn, Miles Davis, all BLATT!
And the grills are not as fancy as... say the new ones on Polk towers. Purely functional, as is everything about the Axiom speakers; not a dime wasted on excessive non-functional decoration.

In reply to:

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it's also clear you couldn't restrain yourself from putting folks' ideas down, because after all, Bren, aren't you are one of those guys who already knows it all?

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Hmm.. with the frequency you tell me that I do know it all, I'm starting to believe it.

Bren R.

Hey smartypants, ease off on the brain activity, please!

The whole "only a dog can appreciate it" line of thought took on a new dimension for me last winter. I put a set of those deer whistles on the bumper of my car. I heard nothing, but I never had a deer jump out in front of me. They worked pretty well, or so I thought.

Several times I looked in the rear view mirror to see pretty impressive herds of deer chasing me. Upon an inspection, I determined I had installed the whistles on the car backwards. I guess that gives credence to their capability.

they didnt pee on your tires once they caught you, did they??

bigjohn

More likely the antlered fellas mounted Ray's ride and ... you know ...

Sorry I have not chimed in on this conversation for a while, but I have been busy crying all day because I have not been hearing my favorite instrument, "the triangle," the way it was meant to be heard, because of my stupid only 20kHz Axioms can not reach inaudible triangle! levels.

P.S. Wish me luck on finals this week.

Nicer binding posts? I've seen tons of them in my 20 years in the electronics business. When I first got my Axioms, I was highly impressed with the quality of the posts. I was expecting to see much cheaper ones at the prices we paid. I've used them with bare wire and banana plugs, they work great both ways. Sure, I've seen a few nicer ones, but not many.

Are you sure your bananas weren't compressed or worn out Spiff? You've got me very curious now. Can you post a pic of them? Maybe you got some from a bad production run. It could have been a machine or tool setup error on the batch that yours came from. Call Axiom, I'm sure that they'de send replacement post assemblies if you told them about it.

So, Snippy, where're you going to school and what're you studying?

Perhaps I'm spoiled. The only other pair of speakers I've owned are my Snell Acoustics Type K/II's and their posts are more solid and my bananas fit more snugly. Then before purchasing my M60's, I had a pair of Energy Veritas in my home for a week +, and those were nicer too. Now, granted, I know the Veritas are $1500 speakers, but the binding posts alone can't cost all that much more.

Spiff, I think you may have a wanky set of bananas, or you sort of got hit by statistical lightening and got an odd pair of binding posts. The gold plated 5 ways on all the Axioms I've owned have all been first rate.

Finishing up my 5th year at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo studying Architectural Engineering. Still got more to go.

Hate to dig up this thread (for various reasons) but Peter and I did notice that the binding posts between his M22s and my M50s were different. You could not use a wrench to tighten his (as they were round, like little barrels), while with mine, it was similar to a standard hex nut. (I mean, gold, thicker, etc, but the same basic shape). They also included a little wrench in with the feet and spikes!

I think the difference in the posts reflects the difference in age of the speakers. I have older QS8s, and the posts are round, like Peter's M22s. My M60s and VP150 are newer and have the hexagonal posts (with plastic wrenches).

That's what I figured. I was wondering if Spiff had the old style.

ALL my speakers i got 2 months ago(M60's, QS8's,150) had the hexagonal posts with the plastic wrench which also fit the spikes. nice touch

bigjohn

I've got the hex shaped posts.