Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Paul M. Johnson

I have not until now been able to bring myself to jump in for fear I would tend to inflame the discussion, which while I find it interesting, I am a bit uncomfortable with on the Axiom forum.

My wife is Israeli. Her father's family has lived there for six generations, long before the modern state of Israel. Her mother and her parents fled the Nazis in Poland to Israel 1939. The rest of her mother's family remain in Aushwitz. Some of her family were murdered by arabs in Palestine back in the 1930's. Her grandfather bought land in Jeruselem before the creation of the state of Israel. This land, which my wife has inherited an interest in, has been a Palestinian refugee camp since 1948.

Having grown up with generations of experience with this conflict our conclusion is this: The problem is not Arabs, Muslims or any other ethnic or religious group. It is anger fueled by pain that often manifests as fanatism. We haven't noticed fanaticism being exlusive to any religious or ethnic group.

Growing up in Israel my wife will tell you that Jewish fanaticism was, and is more troubling to her than was Arab fanaticism. She got to see this quite close up from her cousin Mier Kahana, one of the most fanatical Jewish leaders campaigning for the removal of all Palestinians from Israel and the occupied teritories (he was assasinated in New York 10 or 12 years ago).

We find it sad to have these discussions use generalizations such as Wahabists, Shia, Jews, Christians, Americans etc. in us against them positions. I believe these are all dehumanizing stereotypes whether applied to others or oneself. We are all different individuals with both good and bad traits. Much of the trouble in the world comes from the dehumanisation of treating others as well as ourselves as other than as unique individuals.

I believe that if Paul Johnson had been treated as an individual human being rather than as a symbol for all the U.S. "offenses" he would still be alive. I also believe that if those who had murdered him had treated themselves as individual human beings rather than as members of a religious belief system and as members of other ethnic identities, Paul Johnson would also still be alive.

I have never had a bad experience with the Arabs I have met in Israel. My one experience in a Muslim country was a vaction we took in Turkey because we couldn't stand staying in Israel (too much tension) while my step children visited their father.

I went to Turkey expecting an intense and somewhat overwhelming experience in a very foriegn country. The first surprise arriving in Istanbul was how clean it was. The second was how safe I felt. I never encountered anyone who seamed at all questionable, even amongst those living in what to us would be extreme poverty (people trying to make a living sitting on the sidewalk with a bathroom scale looking for donations from peole who wanted to weigh themselves as they walked down the street). We did not encounter the kind of alchoholic and addicted homelessness that I see in U.S. cities even though Tukey was undergoing a major econimic crisis (1,250,000 Turkish Lira to the dollar exchange rate, with 10% inflation per month in the summer of 2001). Rather my experience was more characterized by the guy who rented us a car. He said to us, as he turned us lose with his car to drive the Turkish countryside: "If you have any trouble with the car, I am 100% sure you can ask any Turkish person and they will help you". When we bought some rugs from a young man in his father's shop, he was unable to take our credit card. He walked with us to several curency exchanges but he wouldn't let us get cash because the surcharges they wanted were too high to suit him. So he said: "take the rugs without paying me, I will drive the ten miles to your hotel tomorrow and you can pay me at the better exchange rate at the hotel".

This is the side of Muslim culture I hear next to nothing about in discussions these days, the deeply ingrained sense of hospitality. The duty that Muslims have to take in even their enemies and to protect them with their life if they ask for sanctuary.

I believe that to solve the problem with terrorism we must avoid making the same mistake the terrorists make. This is to categorize other people in mass and to attack them indiscriminately. The more precisely and carefully we we can address the mechanisms of terror, the more quickly we can remove it without adding to the causes of it. As with most problems precision and finnesse are more likely to succeed than the application of force without sufficient control.

To take this back to the home theater topic, you might enjoy the movie "The Beast", it is an Israeli movie about the Soviet invasion of Afganistan. It brings it down to human the level of a Soviet tank crew who become separated from their unit and the group of Muhajadeen who hunt their tank "The Beast".

WOW! Mark, that was articulate. Thank you.

Sorry, md55, but Turkey is the exception rather than the rule. You can thank K'mal Attaturk for the rise of a secular state in his effort to westernize the bankrupt and senescent heart of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey stands pretty much alone as a semi democratic state among Muslim countries - and it stands that way because the Army is always prepared to bring down any civil administration which threatens to return Turkey to an Islamic state.

While your family's historical credentials are impressive, permit the question: What remains of the historically great Jewish communities of Damascus, Baghdad, Alexandria, Cairo? How are the Christian communities faring in Islamic countries? Permit a quick answer to my own question - Muslim countries are now substantiall Judenrein, free of Jews, and the Christian minorities, though afraid to speak, are terribly oppressed by their neighbors. It is therefore somewhat distressing to see you compare democratic states with fascist totalitarian societies and equate them by saying each has its fanatics.

No one is saying all Muslims are bad, but if you don't see that the distribution of normative values in some societies condone and applaud murder, genocide, and the oppression of religious minorities then md55, I think you're looking at the world as you wish it were as opposed to how it is.

good post mark.. food for thought!!

i think as americans, we do risk categorizing these different nations and beliefs. the lines become blurred when we try and separate the good from evil.

bigjohn

Evil exists.



Sorry for the weird picture previously posted, had no idea.

Mark, that was an amazing post. I share your sentiments.

I recently came across a fascinating article having to do with cognitive dissonance, or what happens phychologically when something you believe is contradicted. It's a fascinating read.

I think there's a lot of room for discussion about US policy in Iraq. The matter raised by the beheading of Paul Johnson is not US policy, but rather the war which is being fought against Western Civilization.

The beheading of Paul Johnson does not stand alone. You will recall Daniel Pearl, Nick Johnson, the Burnhams (Christian Missionaries beheaded in the Phillipines by Abu Sayeff), Daniel Arad, 'Princess' Leila, a member of the 'royal house' of Saud, beheaded for "loose morals," the 3 Buddhists beheaded in Thailand recently, a Hindu family of 5 beheaded in Kashmir, the wild eyed delight in the crowd in Faluja celebrating the burned and mutilated bodies of 4 Americans, Dan Arad, and thousands in Somalia, Ethiopia, Nigeria. What do you think is happening here?

Does your world view permit the possibility that not only is a religious war being waged against non Muslims by Muslims but that nothing is required of you other than your religion and being in the wrong place at the wrong time for you to be a player here?

If you don't think that beheading is a practice embraced by the normative values of Islam have you considered that cognitive dissonance is a possible explanation?

Mark, Peter

Thank you to both of you for your posts. Mark, that was amazing. Specifically this part:
"I believe that if Paul Johnson had been treated as an individual human being rather than as a symbol for all the U.S. "offenses" he would still be alive. I also believe that if those who had murdered him had treated themselves as individual human beings rather than as members of a religious belief system and as members of other ethnic identities, Paul Johnson would also still be alive."

You are both doing a great of job of saying (at least from what I am reading here) "Don't paint all muslims with the same brush."

Thanks

jr

I'd like to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts here. Personally I do not feel comfortable using this forum to debate what is too off topic. I'd be happy with personal messages but one public post was enough for me.

Hi Peter,

My post was originally a personal message to you thanking you for your balanced and humane thoughts. I loved your FDR quote. To me that was real leadership with courage. As I wrote you I decided to make it my one post on this subject. I wouldn't have done it had you not provided the balance to the thread.

I enjoyed the article on cognitive dissonance. I started as a psych major before switching to architecture. My wife is a phycologist so it has always been one of my loves. A friend of mine likes to tell the story of a cult that believed that they would all be taken up to heaven by aliens. They sold all their belongings, prepared themselves and met at the designated location to be taken to the new realm. When the appointed time came and nothing happened, that was when they became real converts for life. Easier than admitting you are a complete fool. This mechanism is used in many ways. Fraternity initiations will produce real long term loyalty if they require you to do difficult, unpleasent and foolish things. Better to place real value on belonging than face what you did for something without lasting meaning.

I am wondering where the current situation will end. During the Nixon administration I saw how people supported him right up until the end. When the dissonance finally became to shrill they hated his guts and wouldn't credit him for his successes either.