Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
OT: Declaration of Independence
#51272 07/02/04 04:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
T
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
Though I have read it many times, I am always deeply moved by the strength, power and eloquence expressed in the Declaration of Independence. I urge everyone to take a few moments to reflect upon how the risks taken and sacrifices made in those days changed our world.

To my Canadian friends, sorry for the ruckus


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51273 07/02/04 04:32 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
I am ashamed to say that I have never before this day read through the entire document. It truly is remarkable. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51274 07/02/04 07:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
Don't get me started. I have always been moved by that document (among others). Old regulars around here have heard me say before that I am a lover of the language, and have heartfelt respect, and profound admiration, for those who use it well. When I come across instances of such usage, my invariable reaction is one of (that poor overused word) awe.

For those who have never seen it, I would direct you to an old piece of fluff movie called Ruggles Of Red Gap.

Leonard Maltin gives the movie 4 stars. From a review at the Internet Movie Database:

"The movie was nominated for Best Picture and the performances are outstanding, particularly Charles Laughton as the butler/servant who sees freedoms and opportunities in America that he never would have had if he remained in England. The standout scene in the movie is when Laughton is in a local Red Gap bar and someone mentions Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. When no one in the bar can seem to remember what Lincoln said, Laughton (the Englishman) recites the speech in its entirety with enough emotion and dramatic flair to bring tears to one's eyes."

All I can say is, if you have not heard Charles Laughton (an Englishman) recite the Gettysburg Address, you have not heard the Gettysburg Address. I would've given anything to hear him read the Declaration Of Independence.

Thanks, Tom, for encouraging me to read it again.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51275 07/02/04 07:48 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 70
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 70
I'm not trying to get anyone upset here, and do think that the Declaration of Independence is a great piece of history.

Did anyone else notice the last point in the list of facts table? I'm sure there is a whole group of people who live in the United States who don't appreciate that type of language.

Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51276 07/02/04 07:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
T
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
Jack, it is my desire to not only get you started, but also to keep you going. I share your admiration for great writing, and I re-encountered "Leaves of Grass" not long ago solely due to a reference you posted. I thank you for that, and for today's movie reference.

I think it is entirely appropriate that, on a forum devoted largely to the appreciation of music, we also occasionally take time to expand our definition of joyful "Lyrics". Great writing is no less an art form than music, and each has the capacity to elevate and inspire on a level that I find tremendously satisfying.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51277 07/02/04 08:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 6
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 6
I would agree completely that literary works are works of art.

As a citizen of Canada, I truly enjoyed reading the document. I remember studying it when we studied politics, and great thinkers seminal works.
This is of course built on many brilliant ideas from many brilliant people over the course of pre- USA world - my favourite being John Locke.

Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51278 07/02/04 08:03 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
As with all historical documents, you have to consider the context. I don't like that kind of language either, but from the perspective of those writing/signing it, some of whom had probably seen/lived through/faught in attacks by Native Americans, without the support of the Britich government, it probably seemed a valid statement. On the other side of things, the US Government and the colonists did some pretty horrid things to the Native Americans as well... I imagine that if the Native Americans had written a similar document for some reason, it would have mentioned the lying, honorless, thieving white man.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51279 07/02/04 08:21 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 70
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 70
kcarlile, I totally agree with you. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I don't want to take away from the excellent piece of writing that the Declaration of Independence is, or of its enormous effect on the world. I just wanted to point that out because it sort of struck me as odd to have such a revered piece of literature contain such racism. But I agree, context is everything.



Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51280 07/02/04 08:23 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
Hell, you can find it in the Constitution, too...

And in the Bible. In fact, it's all over the Bible. But so's an awful lot of good stuff.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51281 07/02/04 08:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
It is unreasonable to judge a 1776 document with 2004 values. Were you alive then, you would have used the same language. P.S. by definition, everyone born on the North and South American continents is a "native" American.

Tom, to give credit where credit is due, I believe it was actually BigJohn who reintroduced us to the Leaves Of Grass."


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51282 07/02/04 09:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,016
B
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
B
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,016
good memory ajax.. i wasnt gonna toot my own horn, but yes, it was me.. go figure.. the passage in question is entitled, 'this is what you shall do'.. its always been one of my favorites. whitman was a very uncommon thinker for his time.

bigjohn


EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51283 07/02/04 10:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,854
R
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
R
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,854
The remarkable thing about the Declaration and the way it molded democracy is that there wasn't much practical experience or role models to draw from, and they got it right in most every way. Living here in Rochester, NY, I have come to learn (local historical library sessions and the like) that the Seneca Indiains and their manner of governing contributed heavily to the ideas that American Government were based on. All in all, a remarkable accomplishment.

Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51284 07/02/04 11:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
T
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
Mea culpa, John. I vaguely remembered a thread in which both you and Ajax had offered meaningful quotes, and I got the references switched. I apologize, and of course wish to express my gratitude to you as well for the many insightful ways that you help enlighten me.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51285 07/03/04 05:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,703
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,703
I was listening to Glenn Beck today and he talked about the 58(?) ppl that signed that document and how almost all of them paid dearly for doing so. It was something I never really knew or thought about before. Just another thing taken for granted but knowing what those rich men gave up (wealth, family, lives!) for me to live in the greatest country in the world (sorry Axiom! ) really hit me.

/salute to all the names we just don't know

Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51286 07/05/04 03:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 619
aficionado
Offline
aficionado
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 619
So yeah, it is a great document. But, read it again thinking about a really bad break up. It's pretty funny.

Oh yeah, and we're keeping the land damn it!...


[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51287 07/05/04 01:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 342
devotee
Offline
devotee
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 342
Ray,

You bring up a great point about Native American influence on our form of government. Only recently did I become aware of the fact that aspects of our very own American democracy were modeled to some degree after Native American practices, such as the Iroquois League.

FYI..The following book was the source of my new understanding: Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong. Yes, the title may give the impression of being and extremist book, but don't be fooled. This is an amazing book about how our history textbooks present a watered down version of history, devoid of context, which is critical to truly understanding the evolution of our society. The point of this book is not to paint a good or bad picture of the US, rather to point out that our historical education would be much more rich and pertinent to everyday life if it encompassed the unwashed facts in their entirety.

I would truly recommend this book for everyone reading this post. I will admit that I did not particularly like history class in high school. In retrospect, I would attribute that partly to the problem that this book addresses. Our existing history education consists of dates and facts that have been stripped of their context, as well as references to events and actions that would shine a bad light on the intentions of our forbearers. Rather than view all of our past, good and bad, in its entirety in it's true context, our textbooks mold our history into this clean linear progression to today's society. Unfortunately, in doing so the writers of those textbooks rob our youth of true insight into where we've been and where we are going in this society.

OK...I'm off my stump. Again, this is worth a read. It's not an easy read, both because the of the depth of his analysis and the general subject matter. However, it is still a wonderful read.


Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51288 07/05/04 02:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
Well, As long as we're recommending books.......

Like Turbo, I kinda snoozed my way through history in high school and college. That all changed years ago when I became a WWII history buff.

Because of my sleepy schooling, I never had a good sense of the issues, people, and chronology of the Revolutionary period, UNTIL I read Rise To Rebellion and The Glorious Cause by Jeff Shaara. (If his last name sounds familiar to you, it might be because his late father, Michael Shaara, won the Pulitzer Prize for his book The Killer Angels, a magnificent account of the Battle of Gettysburg. A book which I would fervently recommend to anyone interested in that conflict)

These books are classified as novels because included in each are conversations which, of necessity, are fictional. But each is rock solidly based in historical fact, and they gave me a much better sense of the cause and effect of the incidents of the respective eras.

The fictional aspects of the books help to breathe life into what many (like me ) find to be a dry, dull topic thereby making them interesting and very readable. I had trouble putting them down. If you have an interest in these events, I heartily recommend them.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51289 07/05/04 05:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
OK, to get farther afield with historial fiction, I highly recommend Harry Turtledove's books, which are alternate history. The Guns of the South is of course the classic, telling the story of what might have happened if the South had been provided with AK-47s during the Civil War. The WorldWar/Colonization series is a supremely engrossing series about what might have happened if aliens had invaded in around 1942. (sounds silly, but it's really quite good.) The Great War series, beginning with So Few Remain is a story arc of what might have happened had the South won the Civil War (but lost The Great War), with it evolving into a close analogue of Nazi Germany. What makes these books so fascinating is that Turtledove goes inside the minds of historial characters to tell the story. Of course, there are also characters that are entirely fictional who play pivotal roles, but many of the main characters are historical.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51290 07/05/04 05:11 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
TurboDog, the textbook adoption process here in California is complicated. It is disproportionately affected by special interest groups, heavily politicized and worth big, big bucks to publishers. The textbooks adopted by California are automatically adopted by over 20 other states, I believe, so publishers try very hard to win these contracts. I've heard tales of kickbacks and other corruptions among elected officials and gov't employees.

What we're left with in the classroom are books filled with fluff about the roles of women and minority groups in American history, lots of politically correct language, and a sterile listing of bland chronological facts. It is fact that the history of the US was dominated by "dead white men", but the books seem to be getting away from that. There is also little or no romance for bygone eras, no emotional appeal given to the great figures in American history. Everyone knows education in America used to be better, why don't we go back to doing what was done before?

IMO, the proper goal of high school education (for most students) is as much about socialization as it is education. We should leave all that "question authority" stuff for the kids that go on to college.

Now, if only the makers of "The Simpsons" could create a collection of history videos...

Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51291 07/05/04 05:30 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
Which is why throughout my elementary school career teachers lied to me about Columbus discovering the world was round. My ass. Sure, maybe you should sugarcoat things a bit for children. But don't lie to them. There is no concievable reason for this particular lie. Not to mention the whole Columbus discovered America thing. Even if you want to stay Euro-centric, you could mention Lief Erikson and be a little more correct.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51292 07/05/04 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14
A
frequent flier
Offline
frequent flier
A
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14
Having studied around the world, it was most amazing to view American textbooks alongside of those of other countries. The biggest problem that I saw was historical facts that were left out - ie the US losing the war of 1812 to Canada. This is mentioned in many texts from other sources, but I never saw it in a US textbook.

Also, the students of other countries study world history. The students I met while in the US told me they did little world history, but were working primarily US history.

I may have met atypical students, but for years my US relatives did not have the exposure to facts, media, open exchanges available in Europe.....

No offense intended...simply ramblings.

Re: OT: Declaration of Independence
#51293 07/06/04 03:44 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
"Having studied around the world, it was most amazing to view American textbooks alongside of those of other countries. The biggest problem that I saw was historical facts that were left out - ie the US losing the war of 1812 to Canada. This is mentioned in many texts from other sources, but I never saw it in a US textbook."

Not surprising that it's not in any American textbook. I would be surprised to see that in any textbook - Canada did not exist in 1812. Regardless, the war between Great Britain and the US should likely be called a draw, as nothing was gained nor lost on either side (other than lives, property and Washington DC. Think they'd be willing to come burn it again ).

"...but for years my US relatives did not have the exposure to facts, media, open exchanges available in Europe....."

That was intended as a joke right?

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Link Copied to Clipboard

Need Help Graphic

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics24,940
Posts442,457
Members15,616
Most Online2,082
Jan 22nd, 2020
Top Posters
Ken.C 18,044
pmbuko 16,441
SirQuack 13,840
CV 12,077
MarkSJohnson 11,458
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 386 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4