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New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55061 07/20/04 05:28 PM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello All,

Hope you are all well. I just recieved my new M2i speakers, and they sound great. I purchased them to be used as my center channel. I have them wired in parallel as a 4 ohm load into my Harman/Kardon AVR 630. The main seating area is 7.5 feet from them. They are sitting ontop of my 32" TV 16 inches apart, and angled slightly inwards. I have them in the conventional vertical position. They sounded funny when on their sides. Much better when vertical.

On a side note they are very easy to wire in parallel with those 5 way posts. Just had to use a spade to the first, then banana to banana to the second.

These little speakers in tandem make a great center channel solution, at only -25db volume on the HK I am getting up to 75db peaks in vocals from the pair. At -20db volume the levels go over 80db and become too loud, unless you want to listen from the dining room or kitchen, lol. Let me clarify, it was very loud, but still very clear, no distortion detected at these levels. I have them crossed over at 80hz, and the trasition to the sub is seemless. It really sounds like the base is coming from the M2i and not the sub.

The clarity of these speakers is incredible. Due to the mains being 8ohms and the center at 4ohms, you have to compensate the center channel up quite a bit. Mine are set at +6 over the mains.

I did test one M2i as a center by itself, that was unsatisfactory, it needed the sonic reinforcement of the second to sound full.

Since they sounded so good, I tried them as mains. They are a little small as mains, but still sounded very good. Had to crank them to -17db volume to get into the 75 to 80db range. That was from a distance of about 11 feet away, since I moved them from the TV to where the mains are located. Honestly I did not think I could get that level of sound out of them, especially from 11 feet away!

The room they are in is 18 wide x 12 deep, seating area is along the long wall.

Hope this message is useful to anyone thinking on trying these little speakers for themselves.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55062 07/20/04 05:42 PM
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Thanks for the info!
I'm a little curious as to how you have them wired. The way I've pictured it, wiring in parallel would mean that both speakers are wired independantly to the same pair of jacks on the receiver. Unless H/K changed the posts from the 525 to the 630 (I can only hope!), the H/K can't take spades. Do you have the speakers connected to one another somehow?


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55063 07/20/04 07:26 PM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello Kcarlile,

Hope you are well. The first speaker wire from the HK to the right speaker has banana on the HK end and spade tip on the speaker end. Spade is inserted into the binding post and screwed down. The left speaker is connected to the first in parallel with a speaker wire with banana jacks on both ends, just plug them into each speakers banana jacks.

There ya go, all wired up. Just make sure you have them in parallel, red to red, green to green. This will yield a 4 ohm load.

Later,

TonyM


Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55064 07/20/04 07:28 PM
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Ah, right. Welcome, btw.

I was toying with the idea of doing this. Have you had any problems with shielding? What do you have for your main speakers?


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55065 07/20/04 07:49 PM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello Kcarlile,

I had a slight problem with shielding, but when I angled them inward the problem was resolved.

My mains are a set of sub-par Yamaha 3 way speakers with 8" Woofer, 5.25" mid, and 3/4 radial tweeter. Hopefully by April next year I can replace them with a pair of M22s.

This holiday season I am replacing my terrible sounding sub with an SVS 16-46Pc Plus.

The center channel before this upgrade was 2 identical Yamaha speakers as the mains. It is amazing that such a small speaker can outperform such large ones. The midrange on those yamahas has a lot of dips in the vocal range leaving you straining to hear dialogue, turning it up just made it louder, not clearer. The M2is solved this with flying colors even at very low volumes. It is quite amazing.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55066 07/22/04 04:31 PM
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Tony, awesome thread - thanks for the info. Please give more feedback as you live with these and add new equipment ... and put up some photos if you can.

Birdman


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55067 07/22/04 04:34 PM
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I am surprised about the shielding problem - aren't M2is video shielded?

Birdman


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55068 07/22/04 06:30 PM
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The M2's are video-shielded. There should not be any problems with them near a TV. I'm curious now as to how well they are shielded?

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55069 07/23/04 02:06 PM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello Austinbirdman,

Hope you are well. Axiom states that they are shielded, but they interfere severely with my 32" tube TV if at a 90 degree angle to the tube. Once I angled them inward slightly the large green rings on the screen faded. The shielding problem seems to go away if you slide them backwards about 9 inches from the front of the tube also, but that is not an optimal placement.

The sound quality of these little speakers still astounds me. I chose them over the Axiom VP100 and VP150 because you can cross over at 80Hz without difficulty. I would have to choose a 100Hz crossover with VP100 or VP150. Not sure why Axiom does not have a port or dual port on the VP100 or VP150 to allow them to play lower frequencies.

I am glad you found my information useful.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55070 07/24/04 03:56 AM
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In reply to:

I chose them over the Axiom VP100 and VP150 because you can cross over at 80Hz without difficulty. I would have to choose a 100Hz crossover with VP100 or VP150.




Interesting to say the least. I hate to say but I was not aware of the 100 and 150's limitation in this area. You have me thinking now..................DAM...............I start thinking and it usually means I'm buying something!

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55071 07/24/04 02:47 PM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well (or happy?). Yes, the VP100 is +/-3db 95Hz-22kHz and the VP150 is +/-3db 85Hz-22kHz. The M2i is +/-3db 70Hz-20kHz, so an easy 80Hz crossover.

Also think of using 2 M2i together as the top half of one M80ti, you have two 5.25" and two 1" titanium tweeters at 4Ohms load. Power handling in parallel is additive so each M2i is 150 watts max powerhandling, times two is 300 watts max for the set.

I am still amazed at how smooth they are in the transition to the sub, and the clarity of sound in general. These are good speakers.

I have moved them again to try out as mains, and noticed that different CDs can be much louder at a given volume level than others. My first measurements were only with an old Simon and Garfunkel CD, had to crank the volume, but the newer CDs are better at between -25 and -30 volume I was registering C weighted SPLs of 62 to 74 at -30, and 65 to 81 at -25. These were taken with some Handel and Bach Baroque orchestral music, lots of dynamic range there.

This really makes me want a pair of M22Ti badly, hehe.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55072 07/25/04 08:19 PM
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So then I guess my nest question is with my crossover set at 80, I'm actually losing audio from my VP100? I have a set of M3TI's in the back. Maybe I should use one as a center?????

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55073 07/25/04 08:43 PM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well. Your frequency range below 95Hz is not in your +/-3db range of the VP100. I would switch to a 100Hz crossover with your setup. Frequencies below 95Hz will drop in db depending on how quickly the VP100 trails off in the low end. You will still get sound down to about 65Hz, but it will not be as loud as what you get from 95Hz on up. Would be nice to see a graph of the frequency response of the VP100 and VP150, but I have not been able to find one.

Here is the frequency response chart for the M2i from the Soundstage review.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m2i/

and here is the one for the M3Ti that you own.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m3ti/

both cross over at 80Hz perfectly.

As to using one M3Ti, I tried one M2i and found it limited by itself, adding the second M2i disperses the center channel much better than one. I am quite happy with what I am hearing.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55074 07/25/04 09:41 PM
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You could try doing a frequency sweep on the center channel and see where the dropoff is.


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55075 07/26/04 04:00 AM
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This is interesting, esp since I have yet pushed the *buy now* button. And M2's would be ~100 bux cheaper than the VP150.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55076 07/26/04 04:10 PM
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Hello INANE,

Hope you are well. If you are thinking on trying this setup out, make sure your amp or receiver can handle a 4 oHm load.

Later,

TonyM



Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55077 07/27/04 03:41 AM
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Tony you win the award for being the most polite on the forums, hope you are well yourself.

As far as the AVR, I happen to have a HK 630 myself!


Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55078 07/27/04 05:21 AM
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Hello INANE,

Thank you for the complement. I love my AVR 630, how do you like yours? HK really underrates it when they say it is 75 watts per channel, those high current watts are quite impressive. I listen to a lot of classical, and it handles insane dynamic range with ease.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55079 07/27/04 05:30 AM
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TonyM, thank you for the information. I'm fairly sure my 3805 can handle the 4ohm load. If not I have other amps that will do the job. I'm going to give this a try and run a set of M3's and see what happens. I have 50's up front and I think the M3's will work better with them verus the M2's.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55080 07/27/04 05:35 AM
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I'll be interested in the results.. You don't have a pair of M2s as well, do you? It would be interesting to see a comparison of the two in regards to the M50s.


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55081 07/27/04 05:37 AM
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kcarlile, I have most of them but I don't have the 2's. I may even try this with my 22's just for giggles. We will see. I'm getting tired of moving speakers around!

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55082 07/27/04 05:46 AM
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TonyM Offline OP
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Hello NeverHappy,

You are welcome for the information. You are indeed correct, the M3s would match your M50s much better since they use the same driver. I am using M2i's to match the M22's I plan to purchase in the future.

Although, I will see how the M2i's sound with the new sub as mains around Christmas, I may just buy M2i's for the mains depending on how they sound with the big SVS 16-46PC Plus. It is impressive how much sound, and how clear that sound is, coming from these small speakers. My mind keeps telling me that I "need" the larger ones for the mains though...hehe.

Mmm...I had shielding difficulties with my Tube television with the smaller M2, you may encounter a larger problem with the M3 since it uses a larger driver and therefore a larger magnet assembly. In another thread an Axiom staffer stated that only the Axiom center channel speakers are shielded enough for top of television placement, and that the bookshelf units are only partially shielded for at least 6" spacing away from a tube TV.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55083 07/27/04 05:55 AM
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Well that took me all of 10 minutes to do and............your right. The M3's sound better then the stand alone center! Actually I found one M3 sounded better but with two it just get's better. My wife is going to lose it on me when she comes downstairs in the morning and sees what I have been up to. The good thing with all of this is I have been trying to come up with a reason to add another set of 50's in the back and ditch the 22's..........and gosh darn it, I think this may be it! lol

I also have the speakers sitting within inches of my HD Toshiba and so far I don't have any problems with shielding. If I'm not mistaken HellBoy comes out on Tuesday. I will leave this set-up as is and watch that and see how it works..........and I'm glad to see you bought an SVS. I love mine!

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55084 07/27/04 06:14 AM
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Hello NeverHappy,

I am glad my info made you Happy...hehe...could not resist. Hehe, I wish I had the SVS already. My wife is going to buy it for me for Christmas. Right now I have a crappy KLH sub...it is terrible.

I am glad the M3's sound better than your dedicated center. What will you do with your dedicated center channel speaker? Maybe Axiom will let you trade it up for those M50s?

Yeah, 10 minutes...those binding posts make daisy chaining these together a snap.

Have fun!

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55085 07/27/04 08:17 PM
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This thread is really interesting. I would love to hear more from people who have chosen (or even tried) "unconventional" HT speaker arrangements.

Has anyone tried an all M-2 or all M-3 HT system? Has anyone had the experience of comparing such arrangements with more conventional speaker choices?


Larry 5.1 M22/VP100/QS8/PB1-ISD
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55086 07/27/04 08:29 PM
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Tony, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your experiences. You've certainly fueled my imagination, and given me new respect for the M2. Do you have pictures of your setup that you could share? Some of us are "visual learners"


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Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55087 07/27/04 08:57 PM
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Hello les9596,

Hope you are well. I am glad you find this information interesting. I don't know of anyone who has tried an all M2 or M3 setup, although I have seriously considered it. I don't like peaks in my music above +83db or so, bad for the hearing, and the M2's as mains can easily go beyond that in my 18 wide by 12 deep room. That is with only the 2 M2's running as mains, and there is no strain that I can detect or harshness at those volumes.

Although all that testosterone in my brain tells me that I should get the M22's for mains....and keep the M2's doing center channel duty. Whatever I decide I will keep the M2's for the center, they are perfect there.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55088 07/27/04 09:02 PM
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Hello Tomtuttle,

Hope you are well. No problem on the shared experience, it is fun to experiment. Luckily my Wife thinks the M2's are "cute" speakers, so I can basically put them anywhere without complaint.

Sorry I don't have any pictures, still have not purchased a digi cam.

As far as the setup, I have an M2 on the top of my 32" Tube set at each corner. The wiring is from the receiver to the right M2 with a spade connector, then I plugged a cable with banana plugs into the right M2 binding post and linked it to the left M2's binding post. Pretty simple set up.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55089 07/27/04 09:21 PM
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Hello TonyM,

I too am trying to resist HT decisions based on testosterone response. This is why...

I (used to) have a killer 2-channel system. 450per into 4ohms All-Carver electronics (the old, good stuff) and Klipsch Heresy speakers. Loud and proud. I could easily fill most halls. Unfortuanatly, in 20 years of ownership, I was never required to fill any halls.

One day I visited a lady friend of mine who had purchased one of these 300.00 HTIB systems. It was cheap, installed terribly, had no bass, etc. Many deficiencies.

However, surround sound BLEW ME AWAY! Those 5 crummy, microscopic speakers created a realism that my stereo, for all it's "superiority", could not touch.

So my HT goal has been always to achieve that sense of reality without sacrificing too much in the power/response areas. Oh, and with bass. And I have personally witnessed the fact that it can be done with very small speakers.

I have seriously wondered if an all-M2/M3 system (backed with a sub, of course) would be adequete. I suspect (but do not know) that it would, assuming you were willing to listen to everything through all speakers (i.e; no trying to listen to stereo using just the front L+R pair)

BTW, that killer stereo is being sold to help purchase HT.


Larry 5.1 M22/VP100/QS8/PB1-ISD
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55090 07/27/04 10:05 PM
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Hello les9596,

Hope you are well. I think we all want the best when it comes to our home theaters. One advanatge to all M2 or M3 is that when a movie pans from left to center to right to back etc...it all is sonically matched.

Don't discount the sound of the M2's in two channel mode with a sub, they sound fantastic playing stereo music. The sub fills out the bottom and an 80Hz crossover blends in seemlessly with the sub...even a crappy one like mine. They transition to the sub so smoothly, it really sounds like the bass is coming from those tiny speakers. I would not play them without the sub on, in 2 channel mode...they need the sub.

I honestly don't know if I need the M22's or not. I will not know till Christmas when the new SVS 16-46PC Plus arrives, and I see how the little M2i's blend in with a much larger sub.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55091 07/28/04 03:37 AM
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In reply to:

I will not know till Christmas when the new SVS 16-46PC Plus arrives, and I see how the little M2i's blend in with a much larger sub.




I did a little test just for you. I hooked up my M3's as my mains and they blended just fine with my SVS PC-Ultra. Hope that helps you a little!


Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55092 07/28/04 03:45 AM
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Hello NeverHappy,

Thank you for trying the M3's as mains for me. Have you tried that before? How did they sound with the sub on compared to your M50's? A lot of difference?

Those speakers are moving around as much as my M2's now...hehe.

Have you tried out any more movies with the M3's as your center?

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55093 07/28/04 03:55 AM
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You are more then welcome. With respect to your questions. That was the first time I tried that with the M3's. They sounded just fine at lower levels but as the volume goes up you lose the presence that the 50's bring to the table. Overall they sound the same but the 50's are able to throw more sound. Does that make sense?

As for the M3's at center, yes I have tried a few more movies and they are staying up front and have become my center or centers? of choice. I actually have a VP150 also and the M3's to me at least, still did a better job.

Once upon a time in these forums I posted that I wanted to go with all 50's for all channels. This is turning out to be the first step. My 22's are going and I'm going to put 50's in the back. Not sure if the wife will let me drop a single 50 on top of the TV but...............oh well, a guy has to try! lol

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55094 07/28/04 04:07 AM
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Hello NeverHappy,

Nice to hear that they are still outperforming as a center channel option. M50s all the way around would be what crackpots like us would consider 'ideal', to have the same speaker for all 5 channels. Not sure how you would arrange the center tower speaker though, too big to put ontop of the TV, and the two M3's have the same woofer complement as one M50, and an extra tweeter to boot. The sonic reinforcement of the second M3 should give the same output of one M50 together.

Here is another experiment, put 2 M3's on one side in stereo and one M50 on the other side...you will have to adjust for the different ohms with a channel boost to the 4 ohm side to compensate. Then see if the 2 M3's sound the same as one M50. 2 M3's should output 6db's more than one M3 alone. This experiment will tell you if you really need an M50 at center, or if the M3's do the job as good or better, since they have one extra tweeter.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55095 07/28/04 04:18 AM
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In reply to:

put 2 M3's on one side in stereo and one M50 on the other side




Hello TonyM, (Sorry had to do it!)

I thought of that to........but I'm tired of moving speakers! lol I'm going to go with 50's in the back and leave the M3's as my center. This will also mark the end of my QS8's unless I go 7.1 again but I can live with that.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55096 07/28/04 07:04 AM
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Hi, I just got an onkyo 501 to go with my Axiom m2is and HSU STF-2. I think it sounds fantastic and has no problem getting to high volume in my modest room, bout 15x15. I have the crossover set to 80hz. My old receiver did not have the option for "small" speakers and sometimes I worried that the bass they were being sent might damage them. Now I don't have to worry about that. =)

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55097 07/28/04 12:14 PM
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Hello MikeS,

Hope you are well. Thank you for the information, this is good news for me. Your room is larger in cubic footage than mine, 225 cubic feet vs only 216 cubic feet in my family room. My ceilings are 8ft, how high are yours?

Yes, having crossover settings in your receiver is very nice, the HK AVR 630 is the first I have owned with quadruple crossover capability.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55098 07/28/04 04:45 PM
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Yup, mine are 8ft tall too. You know another thing I noticed with the new receiver is that it is putting out a lot more bass in the subwoofer channel than my old receiver. I used to have the STF-2 gain set to 12 o'clock. Now it's at 9 o'clock and producing even more bass. =)

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55099 07/29/04 12:19 AM
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Hiya TonyM. You will really enjoy your SVS and Christmas won't get here soon enough! Just a question - did you discuss the 16-46 PC+ choice with the good folks at SVS?

I have a 352 sq ft/3520 cu ft room and SVS sold me down/guided me to the 20-39 PCi and it has proven to be excellent. I don't run the thing at ear-splitting, chest crushing levels, but I clearly do not need more sub. I certainly WANT more sub, but it would be overkill. I run the gain at about 45% and the sub is set at 2.5 db on my Denon 3803 and the settings cause my fireplace tools to vibrate. Aside from the $$ savings in relation to the Plus series, Erik at SVS explained that there is precious little out there that requires 16hz (unless calliope music is one of your favorites ). His counsel was that 20hz is more than adequate for the low end and the 20-39 would provide more headroom if I decided louder was better. Just some stray, unsolicited input for you.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55100 07/29/04 03:16 AM
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Hello Ray3,

Hope you are well. I decided on the SVS 16-46 PC Plus on my own. I am a person who listens to a lot of classical, and organ music. So, to produce the lowest note of the mega organs one would want a sub that can go down to 16Hz, which the 16-46PC Plus will do at 90+db...and has 75db down to 10 Hz at the 16 Hz tuning, I might even try the 12Hz option, but I don't think that will be necessary. The 16-46PC Plus will be a little more gentle in the upper bass region, which is fine with me.

Thank you very much for your input, it is appreciated.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55101 07/29/04 10:42 PM
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Hello Ray3,

Hope you are well. You got me thinking. So, I have just looked through my CD collection and I have one CD with music played on the Sydney Town Hall Organ. This organ is one of only 2 in the world with a 64 foot tall C-1 note reed, that translates to 8.18Hz. Obviously with my current equipment I have never felt that note before, and probably never will with the full impact without visiting Sydney for a concert...hehe. Another instrument that goes pretty deep is an Imperial Grand Piano, lowest note is C0, or 16.35Hz, this is also the lowest note for a Tuba. Moving up from there the lowest bass guitar strings are C#0, at 17.32Hz. That last one probably plays fine on the 20-39Pci.

I will probably try that 12Hz tuning point and see what 8Hz feels like, at least I will never feel like I am missing the low end.

Thank You for getting me thinking, and truely evaluating my decision.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55102 07/30/04 01:51 AM
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Sounds like my simple suggestion was a bit short of the thought process you already went through . I love it when choices are supported by research and thinking. Makes the end result that much sweeter. I am sure you will love the 16-46. You also phrased it correctly - at those levels you tend to stop hearing and start feeling the LFE. If this is your first quality sub, you are in for a treat.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55103 07/30/04 03:42 AM
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Hello Ray3,

Hope you are well. There was nothing simple about your suggestion, it made me re-evaluate my decision, which is a good thing. I went back and really looked at the frequency charts to see if I really needed the 16-46PC Plus vs the 20-39PC Plus version. Even though there is only a $50 difference in cost between the two versions.

I also looked at the PCi variant that you have, but it does not have the variable tuning capability and the variable subsonic filters that the newer PC Plus ones have. The frequency response of the newer aluminum driver in the PC Plus versions was much more linear also.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55104 08/02/04 09:55 PM
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As most of you know my TV blew on me so I have been bored today. I have been playing with the the 2 M3's as a center. Currently my Denon was doing it at 4ohms. I took my Acurus A125X5 and ran a cable from my the pre-out for the center from my Denon and stuck a Y in there and hooked up each M3 to it's own channel on the Acurus. I LIKE IT!!!!!! Little more punch then what I had before. Takes a load off the Denon to.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55105 08/02/04 11:04 PM
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Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well. Yeah, running a 4oHm load like we are is very demanding. I have been looking at the Outlaw 755 200wpc X 5, it has 5 discrete amplifiers and puts out 200wpc at 8oHms and 300wpc into 4oHms. Gonna have to wait a bit though it is $1,299, I may be able to talk my Wife into the M200 mono block for the center it is the same 300watts into a 4oHm load and only $299 plus shipping.

Glad to see your M3 experiment is still producing good results, I have seen no downside yet to using my two M2s as my center channel.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55106 08/03/04 02:45 AM
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How about a pic, Tony? I'd love to see how they look on top of a TV.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55107 08/03/04 02:16 PM
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Helle BigWill,

Hope you are well. I am sorry, I don't own a digital camera, I am kind of a dinosaur..hehe. My Wife says they are 'cute', so they must not look that bad up there, eh? That is like a 10+ on the WAF scale, no?

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55108 08/03/04 03:23 PM
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This thread has got me thinking seriously about using 2 M2's in my system. I'm currently using 1 vertical M2. I need a little technical advice. I'm running a HK AVR 130 (55 watts/channel @ 8 ohms in stereo, 45 watt/channel in 5.1. What are the implications for this receiver when running 2 M2's at 4 ohms. Is it feasible? A bigger receiver is in my future plans, but not immediately. Thanks.


M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55109 08/03/04 03:33 PM
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Hello Jorge016,

Hope you are well. Harman/Kardon receivers have a lot of current, but yours seems a little small to try 2 M2s on one channel. Does the AVR 130 have pre amp outputs to add on a beefier center channel amplifier? Your smaller receiver may overheat, or worse clip the signal causing damage to your speakers.

The AVR 630 that I have is rated at 75 watt/channel into 7 channels 20Hz to 20kHz, and 90 watt/channel in stereo 20Hz to 20kHz. So, that is 30 more available watts in surround mode.

Personally I don't think it is worth the risk of damage to your system.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55110 08/03/04 03:51 PM
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You confirmed my suspicions, Tony. No preamps on the 130. I'll wait until upgraditis overtakes me. I appreciate the help.


M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55111 08/03/04 03:59 PM
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Hello BigWill,

Hope you are well. Although I don't have a camera, I measured everything and drafted a schematic drawing of the setup. All proportions on the original drawing were at 1/8th scale, so all the proportions are correct. Hope this helps.



Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55112 08/03/04 04:10 PM
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Hello Jorge016,

Hope you are well. No problem on the help.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55113 08/03/04 05:17 PM
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Ah, jeez, you didn't need to go and make a drawing! Thanks though, I see that it actually has a nice symmetrical look to it there.

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55114 08/03/04 06:33 PM
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Hello BigWill,

Hope you are well. No problem making up the drawing, I figured it would give a decent representation of how it looks, with the added benefit of the actual dimensions that a picture would not give.

Later,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55115 08/05/04 03:49 PM
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Hello TonyM,

Interesting thread you started. I just chatted with Ian Colquhoun, Axiom's designer and founder, about this subject and we both concluded that there really are no downsides to using a pair of M2i's in parallel as a center channel.

In theory, you would get some constructive and destructive interference across the spectrum, but we already deal with that with no problems from two main stereo speakers in stereo or a 5.1-channel surround system.

You would definitely get better dispersion running two 8 ohm M2i's in parallel, and apart from the lowered impedance to 4 ohms, would be almost like a VP-150.

There is a decided advantage to using two centers, particularly if you have one of the newer large-screen rear-projection sets that offer no flat surface above the screen on which to put a center channel. My own option may be to use a pair of M2i's, one on each side of the set so that the dialog images in the center. Putting one in front is not an option because it blocks the infrared remote sensor of the Samsung DLP. I'll report on the results of A/B tests I'll conduct with two M2i's vs. one vs. a VP100 or VP150.

Regards,


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55116 08/05/04 04:38 PM
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Hello Alan,

Hope you are well. Thank you for stopping by and posting your thoughts, it is highly appreciated. A/B testing would be fantastic, since I can't do it on my own, and would really like to know the truth. I seem to have created a monster with this thread, many other threads have popped up on the forums with people asking questions on this topic. So, any input you could add to answer all the questions generated would be appreciated.

Thank You,

TonyM

Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55117 08/05/04 04:55 PM
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Hey Alan,

If you're not too busy, would you please take a look at this short thread. These fellows are presenting arguments why the 2 M2is used as a center would NOT be a good idea, and I'd like your take on their ideas.

I would think using 2 M2s side by side but angled away from each other would provide wide dispersal. But, my knowledge of the physics involved wouldn't fill a thimble. So, for heaven's sake, don't pay any attention to me.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55118 08/05/04 06:23 PM
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I am really interested to hear your results on this.

jr


"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." C Hitchens
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55119 08/05/04 06:50 PM
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As I now have QS4s and M50s (thanks, Sutter!), I have noticed the lack of a center channel more. The WAF is very low for a horizontal center on top of the TV, so I've (please don't hurt me!) piped the center channel preout of the 525 to the TV speakers. It's certainly anchored to the screen, but the sound is a bit... lacking. So I'm going to try using the satellites from my old CSW Ensemble 1 set as a pair of centers on either side of the TV. I did a little graph of the impedence, and concluded as long as the 525 can handle a 4 ohm load (which it can), I should be fine no matter what the impedance of the sats is (the sat+sub combo is rated as 6 ohms).

I tried to keep away, but I couldn't!


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55120 08/06/04 03:45 AM
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Well, cancel that. The CSWs are extremely poorly shielded (ie, not at all). Grr...


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55121 08/06/04 10:58 PM
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Hi Ajax,

I did take a look at that thread and those objections are specious. Comb filtering occurs all the time when we listen to two or more speakers operating together. It's only audible with test signals and it is simply not a significant factor with programme material.

Do you hear stereo and surround enthusiasts running around complaining about comb filtering? I doubt some of those posters have ever listened to comb filtering and can explain the phenomenon, let alone ever having participated in controlled double-blind listening tests.

If you want to hear comb filtering, get a test CD that has a broadband pink-noise test signal on it and play it back over your two main stereo speakers (turn off the others; they will only obscure the results). Set it for a fairly loud level, about 80 dB SPL or a bit more, and sit exactly between your two main speakers in the sweet spot at your normal listening location. Concentrate on the upper frequency "hiss" part of the signal. Now slowly move your head and body a bit to the left then back again, then to the right. You should hear parts of the high-frequency hiss get a bit duller, then brighter, then duller repeatedly as you shift to the left and right. That's because alternate cancellation and reinforcement of the signals is occurring, with tiny nulls followed by tiny peaks, like the spikes of an inverted comb, hence "comb filtering."

It's extremely difficult to detect with music and impossible with 5.1-channel home theater.

This is not to say there may be other as-yet undetected effects that could occur and may indeed be audible using two center channel speakers in parallel. But I won't predict anything until I do some blind listening comparisons with different placement.

Regards,


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55122 08/06/04 11:37 PM
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Thanks Alan. I appreciate you taking the time to peruse that thread. You confirmed what I suspected.

One of the problems with the whole forum experience is that for every opinion posted (in the quise of fact), there is an equal and opposite opinion immediately following it (Isn't that one of Newton's laws?). For a layman, it's very difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Thanks again.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: New M2is, Using 2 as center channel.
#55123 08/10/04 01:59 PM
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Hello Alan,

Hope you are well. Thank you for the suggestion of trying either side of the TV, instead of on top placement. I have now adopted this configuration and found it to be an improvement, since the tweeters are now level with my ears. The sound is much more direct with the M2s in this configuration.

Later,

TonyM

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