Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Bass response difference in tower models

I am wondering how much difference there is in the bass response between the m50's, 60's and 80's. Particularly betweent the M60 and M80. I read a review that claimed there was a pronounced difference. Its hard to imagine that 2 inches in height can add that much to a speaker. Especially when the driver compliment is the same. I'd like to get the M80's for the bass response, but I am concerned that the midrange and tweeter output on that model may be overpowering in a smaller room.
The last time I purchased stereo equipment in the early 1980's designers were still using 12" woofers for top of the line speakers. Now it seems 6.5" drivers are the norm. But then everyone says you need a subwoofer. Hmmmm.

The 80s and the 60s sound very similar - and the 80s would not sound as good in a small room, since they are quite tough to position. This is what I've read on here.

I'd spend the extra $300 on a HSU sub with the 60s instead of on the speaker - that'd make a huge difference in bass, opposed to the 80s without a sub.

I would point out that the M80s are not only 2 inches taller, they are 2 inches deeper--This adds a whole lot of volume (in the sense like length and area). I'd say that could account for more bass. Similarly, the 60s are 2x2 larger than the 50s and also have an extra port.

Looking at the specifications It looks like the M80's would give you a tad more (34-22K) than the M60's @ 37- 22K. From personal experience, you will find the M80's to be extremely tight when it comes to bass, I’m almost positive the M60's would yield the same performance. Most people here recommend subwoofers because they have home theaters or different listening tastes.
I have a separate listening room and it does not incorporate a subwoofer. I have pair of Energy loudspeakers that is similar to the M60's. MOST loudspeakers don't do very well below the given specifications anyway, that is another reason why people incorporate subs in their systems.

I know what your saying when it comes to the 80’s speaker’s that had 12” drivers. I had a set of JBL’s that where almost 7 feet tall and was considered to be the flagship model for the time. They had one side that was slanted. This was before Harmon International purchased JBL. They delivered punch but not below 30 Hz. The big driver at the bottom was mainly an air mover.

In this case I don’t think size matters. The smaller drivers are far more accurate than the larger ones, unless you want to spend a fortune on JM Labs.

Tom

This will explain it better than I can.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/freqresp.html

what is an "HSU" sub?

Hsu Research

One of the most recommended subwoofer manufacturers around here. The other two being SVS and Axiom. Well, OK, there's also some others, but most people go with SVS or Hsu. Poke around. It's kind of fun.

www.hsuresearch.com

Kcarlile,ya beat me to it.

I seem to be doing that lately, eh, BigJohn?

I have M60 and sub STF-2. When i first listen to M60, i think its bass is great because i've never own a tower speaker before. Now, i can't listen to music without a sub. Unless, tower speaker is a full range speaker, i don't think the bass response will beat tower speaker + subwoofer. It doesn't mean that M60 is bad. M60 is good on its own.

anyway, like others suggest, i would go with M60 + a subwoofer (SVS or HSU). I'm sure you'll enjoy the music more than ever before.

In reply to:

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I seem to be doing that lately, eh, BigJohn?

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YES.. see there, its not just me who notices!!

i think we are gonna have to set-up a complaint/suggestion box about you.

to get on topic for a while.. as others have mentioned, my understanbding is that the M80's are just LOUDER than the M60's. but there is not that great a difference in the bass response. my 60's have a tight, punchy bass.. but i send all the lower end stuff to my sub. and the 80's would be VERY hard to find a good placement in a small room.. those suckas need space to breath...

bigjohn

dmw,
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Read the specs carefully. The M80ti's enclosure is two inches taller and two inches deeper than the M60ti's. When you use the same two 6.5-inch woofers in a vented box of slightly greater volume, and you adjust the tuning of the ports and box, then you will get slightly deeper bass extension and somewhat greater output in dB at those frequencies.

Thanks to tleigh for referencing my article. A lot has changed since the 1980s in vented speaker design. But in a general way, you cannot get around the laws of physics. The enclosure volume and the woofer(s) total diameter and surface area determines both the depth and output of deep bass.

So to answer your first question: In a typical room, the M80ti has useful audible output to 25 Hz; the M60ti, to 27 Hz. Within their +/- 3-dB specifications (read my article to get a clear understanding of decibels and frequency response), the M80ti's bass output is -3 dB at 34 Hz; the M60 is -3 dB at 37 Hz. And so it goes: the M50ti, with a smaller enclosure gets down to 39 Hz (-3 dB); at 29 Hz, its output is -9 dB, about half as loud as at 50 Hz, although some gain can be expected from room boundaries.

Another fundamental (pun intended): Every tower speaker can benefit from a good subwoofer, which will extend and increase its output to the 20 Hz region or even deeper.

Regards,

To emphasize that point about subwoofers, Alan, mind if I reprint one of your articles you wrote 10 years ago? It influenced me to buy a sub, I'm sure it would others. (also wish you'd reprint your loudspeaker article entitled "No Place for Amateurs" for the Axiom crowd.)

From the Editor - An Audio Revelation (S&V Vol 10 No 5)

Audio, for most of us, is addictive.

I've never nailed down what it is that's so attractive about hi-fi music reproduction in the home. It's not just the love of music; if it were, I'd actively participate in music more than I do. After all, I studied formally and play several instruments; even earned my living for some time in musical theatre. You'd think that active participation as a musician would be far more satisfying than the essentially passive activity of listening to speakers, spinning CDs and twiddling knobs, wouldn't you?

But there's more to it than just musical appreciation. I believe it's the pursuit of perfection that's so alluring - the desire to stage, just once, that perfect three-dimensional illusion of a performing group right there in the living room. When it succeeds, it's like magic, a kind of audio alchemy. The obverse of this, the darker side, is the fundamentally flawed nature of stereo (audiophiles rarely if ever mistake mechanically reproduced music for the real thing when they hear it coming from a room and can't see the source). We almost get there, but just fall short.

Still, that's part of the attraction. There are always small improvements to be made, new devices that promise another increment in fidelity, in realism. And also it's why we're sometimes willing to grasp at straws, to irrationally place our faith in absurd accessories - exotic braided speaker cables of virginal copper or silver, gold interconnects, AC power "conditioners" and the like, which do essentially nothing but massage our psyche into thinking the illusion is just a bit more real.

But we persist, and every now and then a revelation occurs - a kind of audio epiphany.

A few weeks ago I enjoyed dinner with a friend, David, an editor by day and double-bass player by night (he played professionally with the Winnipeg Symphony for years), an avid audiophile and collector of vinyl. After dinner, I asked David to play his double bass, a wonderful Tyrolean instrument made around 1800 and previously owned by Julius Levine, who recorded on Columbia records (the Music from Marlborough series). The bottom string on a double bass is a low "E", which is at 40Hz. David's bass, like those owned by many professional bass players, is equipped with a special extension at the top of the finger-board which lengthens the string and lets the bassist play a low "C", at 32 Hz. When I heard that low C played - in what is absolutely a normal-sized room - I was staggered by the energy from the instrument. Rob, another double-bassist who, with David, plays regularly with the North York Symphony, was there as well, and he played too. I couldn't get over the rich sonority and sheer presence of the instrument. It was as though the room were suffused with bass. I tried playing it myself (the bowing wasn't foreign to me because I studied violin for years) and again was struck by the resonance of the instrument. Rarely, perhaps never, had I heard a loudspeaker come close to replicating that kind of bass instrument.

Later in the evening, we fired up David's audio system to audition his latest acquisition, the Mirage BPSS-210 subwoofer, a servo-controlled model with an internal-250-watt amplifier and an outboard adjustable crossover/controller. It was linked to a pair of bipolar Mirage M-5si's, a highly musical and pleasing speaker which, by itself, had fairly impressive bass output down to about 30 Hz. I'm familiar with the Mirage M-5, I've listened to a pair for several years. But it can't begin to recreate that palpable resonance of the live bass fiddle -at least not by itself - nor can any other large full-range system I've heard in recent years.

However, after connecting the Mirage BPSS-210 sub to the M-5si's, and auditioning some recordings with well-recorded double-bass passages, the results were, well, wonderful. There it was, that suffusing resonance that was previously missing.

What's the lesson in this? I'm convinced that all conventional domestic loudspeakers can benefit from a true subwoofer - indeed demand it - if the listener is to experience anything approaching the real live energy of live bass instruments. (see "The Stalwart Subwoofer," by Edward J. Foster, on pg. 10 of this issue.)

Of course, as Ed Foster points out, if your musical tastes run to classical guitar or similar fare, you've just saved yourself a whack o' dollars. Oh yes, if you meet a double-bass player in your journeys through life, don't ever let him or her perform in your living room - unless you're prepared to save those pennies and a BIG subwoofer.

Alan Lofft, Editor