Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Last Chance Living Room HT Recommendations

Hello everybody! For almost a year I have waited patiently, lurked, planned, saved, and cajoled. Now the moment has finally arrived to pull the trigger. This is an open call for opinion, and my last opportunity to improve my living room HT through the benefit of other people's knowledge and experience. I have 6K. Current plan is to split my funds - 3K for a tv, 3K for speakers, sub, and receiver.

As far as the tv goes, I've decided to wait until my 3K buys (more or less) a Samsung 50" DLP with the hd2+ chip, the 7-segment high speed color wheel, dimple fix, and a 2500:1 contrast ratio. I don't think the wait will be that long.

But I can get the sound today. This is my current best shot: living_room.gif(14K)

2 FRONT	M22	0400
1 CENTER	VP150	0350
3 SURROUNDS	QS8	0705
	AXIOM TOTAL	1455
1 SUB	SVS PB1-ISD	0650
1 RECEIVER	DENON 2805	0900
	GRAND TOTAL	3005

I expect to use this mostly for movies. But even with music, I will always listen with all speakers going. I'll never listen with just the fronts or without the sub. I'll make the stands and buy the cables out of petty cash.

So my questions:
1. Room layout OK? Or would I do better to get the tv out of the corner and stick with 5.1?
2. Allocation of resources (50% speakers, 20% subwoofer, 30% receiver) reasonable?
3. Correct speaker choice? Alternative might be M60/VP100/QS4s for 1425.
4. Anything I flat-out missed?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Larry,

I'm new to this so I can't really advise on layout. If you are willing to go refurbished (i hear they go through more testing than new units) you can save some $$$. I know ecost has the 2805 for $529.

Good luck.

Matt

a corner TV placement is not the 'best' scenario.. but, with the layout of the room, and the fireplace, i think what you have drawn is the 'best' scenario for your situation. there are very few of us that have our HT set-up exactly like we would like, but the object is to get as close as you can and be happy with it!!

i have the M60's, so i am always gonna suggest those, but i know people love their M22's also, so i think you will be happy either way. i think you should stay with the QS8's as surrounds, but maybe get a direct firing speaker for the rear.. the M3 is supposed to be good for that. in general, most suggest a direct firing speaker for your rears.

you have chosen well with the sub.. but, you might wanna look for a better price on your receiver.. i know a denon 2805 can be had for much less than $900 bucks.. if you can save a few bucks there, it might leave some xtra cash for the 60's. or even a little bigger sub? never know.. look for bargains, they are out there.

as a whole, i think you are well on your way to building one heck of a system. if you have been torturing yourself for a year, i would say you are due to start buying some stuff!!! enjoy, and make sure and post some pics!

bigjohn

les9596,

Personally, I'd try to get the TV on a flat wall. That way one couch would be the focal point. The was the pic is, surround volumes will be set for one couch but the other will be way out of whack because of the distance difference between them and the surrounds. Try to TV on the right wall; go with 5.1 - so LS goes away and CS becomes LS. Your left front speaker could go on the other side of the doorway if you can get the wires there - that would allow for the TV to be centered more. The sub can go where it is in the pic or in the lower right corner.

I think your allocation of funds is good. Going with a 5.1 setup instead of 6.1 will free up some $, along with the 5% package discount. You can also get the 2805 refurbed. This savings could get you M60s instead of the M22s if you wanted. Or you could get the PB2 sub. Don't forget to haggle on the price of the receiver too. I picked up a new 3805 for $900 at a B&M, which is only $50 more than a refurb was going for.

Pete

Like John, I have the M60s in the front and love them. And, like you, I have a VP150 in the center, and QS8s for surrounds. But, if, as you say, you'll be using your setup almost exclusively for movies, you'll be very happy with the 22s. I had 22s before I got the 60s, and I found the 22s/150/QS8s to be flawless for movies.

Matt's suggestion about refurbs is a good one. Your chances of ending up with a lemon are probably no greater than if you bought a brand new unit. The money saved could be put toward M60s if you preferred to go in that direction.

I have a 43" Sammy HLN DLP, and love it.

I will disagree with John on only one point. If you're going 6.1, stay with the QS8 in the rear. If you use one direct radiating speaker in the rear (like the M2, or M3), for some weird reason, it's signal appears to be coming from the front rather than the rear (I speak from personal experience), which defeats the purpose of having a speaker in the rear. A diffusing speaker, like the QS8, doesn't present this problem

If you go to 7.1 you can use either 2 direct radiating speakers (preferred, if you listen to DVD-As or SACDs), or 2 QS8s (for standard CDs and movies) as rear surrounds.

Everything else seems fine to me. Good luck. Be sure to keep us posted, and post pics when everything arrives.

Yea, it'd be probably best for you to get a wall space for the TV, if you can. Corner placement is not the best.

However, for me, it was all I had for the short term. At some point, I will wall mount the plasma but I don't have a "stealth" place to put the components, so I don't save a ton of space. My room is bigger, 18' x 27', and I only use a 5.1. More than enough for me. I have similar speakers to yours, though I run a VTF-2. You may want to try 5.1 first and see if it's livable. Use the extra $$$ for cables, DVDs, DVD player (?), other components, etc. Bear in mind, you're gonna be searching a while for DVDs that have 6.1 and 7.1 mixes...

See here:

Cesar's Home Theatre

The plasma is currently "sick". Had 1 stuck pixel, Panasonic agreed to replace it, now I'm waiting. Lord, I hope it comes back before Friday. I want to watch the Olympics in HD...

Good ideas on the refurb and outlet. Also, check the bstock on the subs. I know SVS has a bstock list, but sometimes you have to wait for what you want. Be patient and it'll come, you'll save some $$$. I did bstock w/ Hsu and saved $150.

oldskoolboarder - I just checked HSU's website but couldn't find any info on bstock. How did you do it?

Send Hsu an email and ask to be put on the list. That's what I did last year. Took about a month. Mine had a small scuff on the top. One wipe w/ Simple Green and it was gone, just like new. I love Simple Green...

Hsu Bstock List

Larry, you are a glutton for punishment. You've got everything all worked out, and now you go and solicit opinions. You should know by now that we're not all going to agree.

Since you asked...

That is a tough, tough room. 3 windows (one of which is huge), a fireplace and two hallways. Brutal. Overall, I'd agree with John that you've probably got it configured about as good as it can be under the circumstances. The things that jumped out at me (besides the talent of all you people who draw such pretty diagrams) were:

- That glass display cabinet looks like trouble. Your diagram shows the speaker tucked behind it a bit. Try to make sure you get that speaker a couple inches in front of any nearby surfaces.

- Be prepared to be somewhat flexible about sub placement. After doing the "sub crawl", you may find that moving it around a bit makes a big difference.

- I'm intrigued by the notion of putting the TV flat against the east wall (where the display cabinet is), perhaps trying to squeeze the LF speaker on the other side of that doorway if you can avoid it being completely blocked by the north couch. It might make the North couch a somewhat worse viewing/listening spot, but would make the west couch a true "sweet spot", that the room really lacks right now. Personally, I've tried to live in rooms where I always had to turn my head 45 degrees to see the TV and I did not like it.

- If you're going to leave the TV in the corner, I'm going to disagree with BigJohn about the direct-radiating rear surround. Since both couches are so far off-axis, I think having the third QS in the back is the only way you'd get high quality surround at any listening position.

- If you stick with the corner placement, I'd be inclined to get the VP150 since you have to cover such a wide area.

- I like your choice on the sub, and eagerly anticipate delivery of mine later this month.

- If, by saving $ on the receiver OR going to 5.1 (which I would only do if you reject the corner TV placement) OR going to QS4's instead of QS8's (which I might only consider if the bass management allows you to set separate crossover points for the surrounds v. the mains/center) OR by getting Factory Outlet models, I've got to put in a plug for the M60's. It is an emotional and aesthetic choice more than a scientific one, but I just love my M60's and am very glad I did not opt for speakers on stands, no matter how wonderful.

- I am a Denon fan, and I've been satisfied with HK stuff too (though it was long ago). Recent discussions on this board have me really thinking about the HK 525, 530, 630, etc. I don't think you can go wrong with the Denon, but $900 is too much in your equation, I think.

I'm betting you're sorry you asked.

In reply to:

---

Like John, I have the M60s in the front and love them. And, like you, I have a VP150 in the center, and QS8s for surrounds. But, if, as you say, you'll be using your setup almost exclusively for movies, you'll be very happy with the 22s. I had 22s before I got the 60s, and I found the 22s/150/QS8s to be flawless for movies.

---

Minor hijack (hijax?): The above statement causes me to wonder, do you find that the 60s greatly improve your experience with music over the 22s + sub? Or just that the improvement with music is greater than the improvement with movies?

Contributing to the hijax .

I went to the M60s because, when listening to music, I felt a lacking in the upper bass/lower midrange (probably more in the upper bass) with the 22s and my STF-2. This lacking was really slight, but it bugged me. In all honesty, my room, and it's placement challenges, very well may have had something to do with my experience. YMMV (i.e., you might have a different experience). In my mind, the 60s completely eliminated that perceived dip in the upper bass/lower midrange. A poor recording, however, will sound like dog doo on both speakers.

There are any number of 22 owners here that have NOT had the same experience as I, and are happy as clams with their 22s. The 22s are wonderful speakers and I parted with mine with great sadness, tempered only by the presence of the M60s.

As I stated earlier, for movies, I found the 22s/VP150/QS8s/STF-2 absolutely fabulous. If the 60s provide an improvement when watching movies, it is much more subtle than the perceived improvement when listening to music

I'm unable to access that digram, but I'll second the "spend less on the receiver and more on your front speakers" suggestions. And go cheap on cables to stay under budget.

Thanks everyone for all the good advice so far!

If you have trouble accessing the image, it's my lousy Verizon web hosting. Most of the time, if you try repeatedly it will often work, I have no idea why. Maybe it's some sophisticated algorithm that limits served data volume. I guess I got the "bottom of the barrel" package.

I will definitely do the refurb if I can locate one. That saves 300 right there. Squeeze another 100 out of the turnip and I've got enough for the 60s. Something to think about for sure.

And don't anybody worry about me buying expensive wire. Hey, I won't even spring for stands!

Oh, gotta go. Gotta go call SVS about something or other...

Happy Larry

I had a situation somewhat similar to yours (lots of time to plan, a decent budget, and not an ideal room situation). In my case my family room and kitchen are one large room with average height ceilings. The family room section is about 14 x 18 with a wood stove at one end (in between the FR and kitchen), and a corner placement originally being mandated by my wife (little appreciation for HT considerations!).

You can find some pics here.

Here's what I ended up doing equipment-wise:
- Samsung HLN46W 46" & matching stand (it helped that my wife like the appearance)
- M22's front
- VP150 center
- 2 QS8's surround
- Outlaw LFM-1 sub
- Denon 2803

I started with a corner placement but was totally unhappy with it (surrounds were in front of the best seating position for the TV). Perhaps with your 6.1 setup that won't be a problem. So, I ended up switching everything around so that the TV was against one of the long walls and the couch was on the other long wall. I had to actually get it all in place before my wife was cool with it...she just had a hard time visualizing it. The surround placement still isn't perfect (they are mounted on the same wall that the couch is against) but the QS8's do such a great job that I find it works for me (thinking about a set of those QS stands which is why I haven't run the speaker wire in the wall just yet).

Some more thoughts:
- The corner placement just didn't do it for me at all. I couldn't get that surround feel with the surrounds being in front of me.
- The Denon 2803 is a great receiver; plenty of power and well built (would love to have had the 3803 or 3805 but didn't know about the refurbs at the time I picked it up; otherwise they were beyond my budget)
- I mistakenly left shelving for the components out of my budget; had to go back to the CFO (my wife) for more funds.
- The M22's sound great and are plenty loud enough in my space (FR+kitchen is about 34' long) in spite of the fact that I wish could have gone the M60 route. Perhaps I just don't know what I am missing but with a high quality sub (looks like you've got that covered) they blend really, really well. btw, my listening habits are about 70/30 in favor of music.

Update: FYI, I just finished an email exchange with Ron at SVS. He informed me that the colored PS1-ISDs won't be available again for at least 12 weeks. Black units are available now.

He also said:
"Alternatively I will say this. Our subs are NOT hard to paint. While you would be stuck on a return (we can't take one that's been painted, we would not have any qualms about supporting it indefinitely for warranty purposes (3 year bumper to bumper is a given). With a bit of masking (I would take off the baseplate and do it separately, none of which would hurt warranty coverage by the way, SVS's are designed for easy service and disassembly) you could put on virtually any color with a variety of simply household type paints."

Wow, that's a lot of parenthesis! I think one of them is missing a close-parenthesis, but there are so many of them that it's hard to say for sure!

Interesting idea about painting subs, though.

Update:
Ordered PB1-ISD Tuesday. Shipped today.
Ordered Axioms M22-VP100-QS8 today. Shipped today. 5.1 instead of the 6.1 I talked about before. Alan talked me down.
Ordered Wood Technology FGH Solid Hardwood Series 21" Speaker Stands for M22 from racksandstands. Order confirmed today.

Two things:

Mail order is a great way to go. Around here everyone knows even more advanced techniques, like refurbs and B-stock. I agree with all this stuff completely. Or at least my brain does. But today I walked into Magnolia HiFi and bought a Denon 2805 and paid full price, minus my "preferred customer" discount (more or less covers tax.) I just didn't feel good about getting the receiver mail order. My feelings won this one. Reasonable caution or irrational fear?

BTW, I got the "silver", which is really a shiny/light gun metal gray color. Salesman said typical ratio is 1 silver to 4 black.

Almost bought the tv today. I wanted to wait for the gen4 Samsung DLP, and they're in the display rooms now. I saw the Captain Kirk at both Best Buy(4100) and Magnolia today. Very sharp. The pedestal has controls and lights on it, very high wow factor. Little round speakers on each side, covered by black fabric, very dorky-looking I thought. But absolutely a room-dominating presence and pleasing lines. This tv costs floorspace too. I was waiting for this generation of tech, but the salesman said they had just gotten the skinny that morning and it wont be out in a regular shaped set until 2005. And then only in 46" and 56" models. That hurts! I didn't expect to have to wait 4 months or more. Somebody please tell me this guy is wrong!

ever though about a projector? could get a larger picture with = quality, for the same money or less... just an idea to your TV delema...