Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo selecting a stereo sub with my M80's

Hello Allen,

Hope you are well. Yes, I too own a H/K, the AVR 630. The only weakness I see in it is the lack of control if you use it configured for 2 zone operation. I did not buy it for dual zone use, so it did not bother me. Other than that and the dinky little buttons on that remote, it is the best receiver that I have owned so far.

Later,

TonyM

I'm curious... doesn't using the Zone 2 preouts disable the Zone 2 speaker outs?

With my Denon 2803 the 6th & 7th channel and zone 2 speaker connections are one and the same. There is also one set of pre-outs for channels 6/7 and zone2. You can set it up so that you can use the speaker connections for one (e.g. channels 6/7) and the pre-outs for the other (e.g. zone2).

Perhaps you were asking if you could use both speaker connections and the pre-out simultaneously for zone2 (4 speakers)?

Well thanks for all the input fella’s. and yes, I am doing well. I hope that y'all are to! All your input has me asking more questions now. Hope you don’t get irritated, I tend to beat things till they stop twitching. This may take a while.

Firstly, I’m not sure about using the pre-out for the sub woofer. I’d have to run about 20 feet of coax to it. Plus, Kcarlile’s question makes me wonder about that as well. The manual does not say one way or the other if I can use both the pre-outs and the second zone speaker outputs at the same time.…….this may have to be an experiment. H/K tech has not been overly helpful with my questions. Their email responses have been brief. if anyone wants to take a shot at reading through the manual, H/K has it on line. The multi-room info is on page 36. it’s not all that informative……

Could someone explain to me what the pro’s / con’s are in regards to using the pre-out vrs the speaker cables to the sub woofer? Why is this ‘cleaner’??

The main reason I bought this receiver is its amps. I bought it to drive the M80’s, plus my 5 channel HT that’s in the other room. But the main consideration was this receiver’s power. I really don’t want to spend any more money on amps. But I did consider this option at one point. I had considered buying a less expensive receiver, using pre-outs to a second amp that would drive the M80’s in the other room.

Back to my sub woofer selection……is there any real benefits to go with a down firing sub? One obvious advantage that comes to mind it kids. They wouldn’t be able to kick out a woofer if it’s on the bottom….., not that my 10 year old boy would ever do that……

Has anyone actually had the opportunity to listen to the SVS, HSU and Outlaws for a comparison?? They all look to be pretty similar and all get good marks at most forums. About the same price range. Should I stick to 12” for my room size? Or would a 10” be enough?

And thanks for the EQ info. I’m not real concerned with treble control, the 80’s seem to have more than enough highs and mids. I think a parametric EQ is definitely something worth more consideration.

Ericb…., no, I just want to run the set of M80’s and a sub woofer in the second zone. I’m having a hard enough time arranging furniture for one set of speakers, four would be impossible. This room is my great room where folks gather when I throw a party. I just play CD’s and the satellite signal, which is pretty crappy by the way – but that’s for another string. I think we have the same configuration. The speaker outs are used if you do not want to run another amplifier and don’t need 7 channel in the main Zone. Then I also have pre-outs for seven channels, including the sub woofer for the Zone II. These pre-outs all need an external amp. The question that needs to be answered, is if I can run the speakers off the speaker outs (6 and 7th channels), and run the sub off the pre-outs at the same time.

Hello Mdrew,

Hope you are well. I have an H/K AVR 630, there is always a pre-out signal even with the speakers connected on my unit. I would assume it is the same with your 7200. I tested this with my speakers connected and ran the pre-out to an old receiver and the signal comes through fine.

As far as why the pre-out is cleaner, it is not amplified yet. When you run the speaker cable output it is amplified by the receiver and then amplified again by the subwoofer amplifier this can distort the sound, compared to just amplifying the signal once.

The SVS PC-Ultra with the parametric EQ has a 525watt BASH amp, it will easily handle your room and much more. You might not even have to put it downstairs with your speakers therefore eliminating such a long cable run. If I remember correctly your HT is on an open balcony, yes? Try putting the sub at the rail and see how it sounds with your mains downstairs. Another benefit of this is you could quickly unplug the downstairs cable, and hook up your HT cables and use the Sub for both areas with a slight adjustment of the subs volume.

As far as downfiring subwoofers is concerned people seem to prefer the downfiring models. I could not find any specifics on this topic. Biggest reason I can think of is the dispersion of sound is 360 degrees with a downfiring model, which would be very beneficial if you try the sub in the configuration is suggested. Plus the driver is indeed protected from poking kicking etc....

Later,

TonyM

Thank you for the reply Tony. Yes, you remembered correctly. The HT is upstairs in an open loft. I'll try the sub upstairs and see how that goes. And thanks for clarification on the output and the pre-out vrs speaker out. That all makes sense.

The Ultra sounds like a dandy. A little too much money though, but It's deffinately on my short list. Just hurts a little to pay as much for a sub as my main speakers.

Hello Mdrew,

Hope you are well. No problem. You may really want to talk to the people at SVS, they are very nice and will give you better advice than I can on which sub would work.

Website is www.svsubwoofers.com

The new SVS PB-2 ISD might also work in your situation, it is an $899 dual 12" box subwoofer with 600 watt bash amp without parametric EQ, as opposed to the single 12" driver PC-Ultra cylinder sub. The PB-2 ISD is 115 lbs and will take up much more floor space than the cylinder, which only takes up 16 inches of floor space and is only 68 lbs and is much easier to roll into place by one person.

I believe if you can live without the EQ for now, you can always add one later, that the PB-2 ISD would have enough power to suit your needs for a lower price. Although you will need enough floor space and another strong person to place it where you wish it.

If space is at a premium nothing fits better than a cylinder sub though, since they only take up 16 inches of floor space, all their volume goes upwards instead of outwards.

Lots of things to consider here. Also, that is alot of volume to fill with those high ceilings.

Later,

TonyM

OK fella’s, I’m getting closer to buying something (I would like to place an order today). One more round of questions for you……

I just received some help from H/K web support. The sub pre-out will not work for the multi-room function. I should clarify that. It will not work with more than one source playing at the same time. There is only one sub pre-out, and it is not dedicated to Zone II, but to the main room (Zone I). If I were playing a DVD in the main room, the sub in the second room would be playing the DVD. So it looks like I’m stuck using the speaker outs for the sub in Zone II. Currently, I have 14 gauge oxygen free cables to the M80’s. I didn’t know where I was going to place them, so I cut the cables to 35’ equal lengths. I ended up needed most of that length, but I could place the sub where I could cut them to 30’. Will I here noise by hooking up the sub this way? I will not have enough room to upstairs to place the sub, so It has to go downstairs next to the M80’s.

As far as the sub selection, I’m leaning toward the HSU VTF-3, HSU STF-3, SVS PB1-ISD and the Outlaw LFM-1. Seeing how I live in Alaska, these companies only ship Fed-X second day air. Shipping to me is roughly $150 - $200 for these subs. That makes $700 the limit for the sub, plus shipping my new max. I can’t really tell by reading through the HSU web sight what gain I would get from the VTF line over the STF line that would be worth the extra $100. Does anyone have a guess what that might be?

Which one of these subs would guys buy? I think for my situation and room layout, a down firing sub is the way to go. I can hide a box sub next to one of my couches and make an end table out of it. The tall cylinder subs would look down right hideous in this room (everything is wood).

Hello Mdrew,

Hope you are well. The people at HK were not thinking very well. You can use the channel 7 and 8 pre-outs to the sub. Hook them up to the left and right line level inputs. Plus you can just switch the cable pre-outs to change to the HT when you do home theater, so one sub for both zones, big benefit. Could use an a/b switch box.

If you are willing to put a cylinder sub upstairs, in the $700 range I would try the SVS 25-31PC Plus for $775. If you are going with a box sub I would see if you could stretch your budget to the SVS PB2-ISD at $899, $199 over budget, but your room is very large which is difficult for a subwoofer to pressurize.

Of the subs you mentioned, either the VTF-3 Mk2, or the SVS PB1-ISD are very good subs. So, toss up between them.

Keeping in the price range take a look at the SVS 20-39PCi at $599 since you can now place it upstairs again. I tried this on my Harman Kardon AVR 630, to make sure the channel 7 and 8 pre-outs work along with the speaker cable outs to a set of speakers, works fine and dandy.

Enjoy whatever you decide to buy.

Later,

TonyM

Hello Mdrew,

Hope you are well. I did not answer all of your questions, let me continue. The STF-3 has a lighter weight cabinet and less power than the VTF-3, I would not consider the STF-3 in your situation.

I am still thinking a cylinder upstairs is the way to go with your setup. They give you the most for the least amount of money, and are much lighter to move around. When you stick one of these in a corner of a room they are jet black and most people won't even notice it, you could even get a plant to hide it behind, if you decide on the downstairs placement.

Another benefit of the cylinder sub is that it is lighter weight, for less shipping cost than the box subs. A cylinder resists cabinet flexture naturally, so does not need all the bracing of a box sub.

As far as noise using speaker cable output to the sub, it all depends on how clean the amplification from the receiver is, and then the amplification from the sub. This double amplification will amplify any distortion from the first amp, which is relatively low for the H/K 7200.

If you are running 30+ feet, I would run 10 or 12 gauge wire, if you go the speaker wire route.

Hehe, I know it is out of budget but have you looked at the wooden SVS Box subs, the SVS PB1-Plus and the PB2-Ultra? Beautiful wood finishes, and expensive to boot.

I hope I covered everything this time.

Later,

TonyM