Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo A/B testing with a sub (NEW M60s !!)

>>They just shipped me a pair of M22ti today and I should receive them on this Friday, can't wait!!

I think you're really going to enjoy them. We really need to get all these speakers in the same room some time...

OK, first impressions :

Big & solid, very nice finish. Needs another port on the front for easier carrying. Notes to self -- Home Depot 12 gauge speaker wire is NOT polarized. Bare wires stopped being the lingua franca of speakers about 20 years ago, now everything speaks "banana plug".

First record was "So Much" by Lori Cullen, a local jazz singer. Album is piano, string bass, drums plus vocals -- very crisp & clear. Played the first track about 20 times with the sub off, switching between M2 and M60.

First observation -- if you don't match the levels between the speakers exactly the two speakers sound totally different. If you match levels exactly they sound a lot closer together. I need an assistant.

Second observation -- the M60s sound boomy with the rear 8" from the wall. Pulled out to 12" from rear, much better. Probably still need to go out a bit further. Wondering if my problem with the M2s + sub was that they were "trying to boom" but there wasn't enough low bass for me to really notice. Poor little guys

OK, let's stay with rear of the M60s 12" from the wall, fronts of M2s aligned with fronts of M60s. M2s are to the left of M60s, ie same separation between the pairs, I just have to wiggle my head left & right when I switch speakers.

Moving on to "Look of Love" (Diana Krall). This is a much more "lush" recording with something going on at most frequencies -- the previous album was pretty much "one instrument at a time". Setting the levels accurately is much easier on this recording, and it takes a hefty twist of the volume control. There are no dB markings on the receiver but if there were it would be about 4 dB of adjustment (there's a sweeping generalization for you ).

Very pronounced difference between the speakers but hard to say which is right. The M2's still sound frighteningly similar to the way I remember Quad ELSs. There is definitely a difference in midrange response between the speakers on "S'Wonderful". With the M2s Krall's voice sounds like it has less lower midrange but is very VERY clear -- on the M60s her voice sounds a bit deeper but maybe a tiny bit less clear or less forward. Either the M2 has a peak the M60 does not, or the M60 has a dip the M2 does not, or their peaks & dips are at different places. Auggh, need more educated ears or a room full of test equipment.

Strings seem a bit more prominent on the M60s, while female vocals are a bit more prominent on the M2s.

Very interesting results when I start cranking the volume up. Even at the SAME volume control settings (ie ignoring the difference in efficiency) the M60s sound a lot more comfortable when the volume goes up. Hard to describe... not really distorted or edgy, more like "I turn up the volume but things don't get all that much louder". Not talking about room shaking volumes here, just the dividing line between "tasteful" volume and "turn it up, I like this" volume. Could just be the small enclosure, I guess, but I don't think I have seen this behavior before. I don't believe I am hitting the power limits because the M60 keeps getting louder and still sounds clear at the same volume control settings.

Just walked back into the rec room and switched from M60s back to M2s (and turned the volume up to keep SPL constant). The M2s just have the NICEST vocal reproduction I have heard in a long time. They really do sound like little Quads.

Tried some A/B-ing and focusing on imaging. Again hard to say -- seemed like some instruments imaged more sharply on the M2s and others were more sharply imaged on the M60s.

Starting to think the room needs a lot of work. Never had good speakers in it before -- this room was optimized more for "fireplace & red wine" than for acoustics. The room is pretty live.

Anyways, the only big surprise here is that the M2 seems to "stop getting louder" earlier than I would expect. The M60 sounds a lot more "dynamic" (loud things louder, quiet things quieter) than the M2, although there is no noticeable distortion with the M2 at the levels where the SPL seems to stop going up with the volume control.

Everything else is what you would expect. The M60 has bass and doesn't seem to need a sub for music, while the M2 really benefits from a sub with some genres of music (although jazz, most classical and a surprising amount of pop sound perfectly fine on the M2 and seem to have all the bass you could want).

I am NOT going to buy M22s just to see how they sound.
I am NOT going to buy M22s just to see how they sound.
I am NOT going to buy M22s just to see how they sound.
I am NOT...

Anyways, going to start playing with the sub now and try to compare (M2+sub) to M60 with and without sub. Back in a while...

JB

P.S. Dang, the M2s still are the best speakers I have ever heard for female vocals.

bridgman,
You make some interesting notes here. Let's compare.

1) Yes indeed, setting SPL to match is an absolute necessity. I also agree that an assistant is a necessity and the wife makes an excellent assistant. Just don't call her that.

2) The M60s were 'boomy' closer to the wall. Not a surprise really, but what i found interesting was the distance you eventually settled upon. My M60s presently sit b/w 12 and 14" out from the back wall. Amazing coincidence i'm sure.

3) Your flip floppy report of how the M60 sounds vs. the M2 is nearly identical to what i heard with the M22 vs. the M60. I know i know, you are shaking your head..."don't talk me into buying the M22s" you're thinking. The M22 literally sounded like the small version of the M60, a little brother so to speak. Their character sound was virtually identical except that the M60 had more bass extension, more bass presence (all this is not unexpected) and overall just a LARGER sound. Again this should not be unexpected as we are comparing a bookshelf cabinet to a full size floorstanding model. Larger cabinet (and drivers) equals larger sound. In our listening room, the M22s also ran out of gas whereas the M60 filled the room nicely with sound.
If i recall, spiffnme also had the chance to hear the M22 and M60 and reported a similar opinion on the differences between the two.

What i really would love to audition is the M40 or M50 against the M60 (alternatively the M3 vs. the M2).

Thanks, JohnK. I was hoping not to use the high pass filter in the sub because it seems to blur the imaging a bit. Best guess was having a 12db/8va high pass vs. 24 db/8va low pass but not sure.

Having said that, you make a good point -- leaving the high pass filter in the loop would make some of the comparison work a LOT easier.

Switched to "Dance on a Volcano" (Genesis, of course). Learned a lot more...

First and foremost, I'm starting to think this is either a crappy recording or my CD player doesn't like it. Some of the distortion I thought I heard on the M2s is just as prominent on the M60s and with the M60s I *know* the volume is not up high enough to be clipping the amp.

There are definitely some notes that the sub picks up and the M60 does not. Need to run Squonk and D on a V through a spectrum analyzer and figure out how the Taurus is programmed... sounds like the oscillators are set an octave apart.

Even after tweaking the sub's settings "properly" (?) between M2 and M60 the sub is more "noticeable" with the M2s. I'm wondering if I really need to have the sub crossover set higher because the room or M2 positioning isn't right. 80hz seemed best with the M2s but compared to the M60s there seems to be a bass "hole" with sub and M2.

I guess this is the big attraction of floorstanding speakers for music. You can live very happily without a sub and save yourself a lot of tweeking

Starting to get a bit of a headache. The M60 tweeters do sound a bit more harsh on high cymbals than the M2s, will have to break them in for a few days and see what happens (FLAME ON )

Very interesting how close our findings were. Note to self... "spiffnme" is ONE person, should not be read as "spiff and chesseroo". I had to read that part of your post about 10 times, must be getting tired.

So, here's the bottom line :

Subwoofer - OFF

Input selector -- PHONO

Track -- Pyramid / Hyper-Gamma Spaces

Volume setting -- LOUD

Listening position -- FLAKED OUT IN ONE OF THOSE LAMINATED IKEA CHAIRS

Ahh. Perfect. Imaging seems to get better as the volume goes up. 5 years of fixing sound equipment for prog-rock bands + 10 years of concerts + 10 years of "stereo wars" + 10 years of target shooting just might have dulled the old high frequency nerves a bit.

OK, I'm happy. No settings, no crossover frequencies to set, no subwoofer level fiddling, crisp imaging, plays loud when I want it and still sounds clean. Sold !!

Noticed the bass still sounded a bit boomy at one or two points in the track so pulled the speakers out to ~15" from rear to wall which eliminated the boom completely. While I was at it I pointed the speakers straight ahead -- previously had them toed in a bit. Separation is about 8 feet with ears maybe 8 feet from the baseline between the speaker fronts. Imaging seems to be better with the speakers straight ahead, not what I would expect but very very good.

First time listening to "Mistral Wind" off "Heart's greatest hits" with the M60s. Again, perfect. The phasing near the start of the song gives a clear "swirling" effect localized *above* the guitars and stage noises. I haven't heard that swirl for at least 10 years.

Tomorrow I'll figure out what to do with all the "stuff". I was planning to do a music system with the M60s and keep M2s + sub for HT. I'm almost afraid to play a DVD through the M60s cause I know it's gonna screw up my plans and I'm going to have to start looking for a good 5.1 receiver. Bah. I should have just bought a Bose WaveRadio and lived happily ever after.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. Very much appreciated !!

John

P.S. Going off to try a DVD. Gonna regret this.

In reply to:

---

Switched to "Dance on a Volcano" (Genesis, of course).

---

Wow..great taste you have there. That's my favorite of the Collins Genesis. I need to give it a good spin on the M22's and see how it sounds. I know that the bass pedal notes are a challenge and that Trick of the Tail seems to be mixed a bit hot. Although, the end of Entangled would be a great test for those bass pedal notes as well.

While we're talking Genesis for a minute, word has it that The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Trick of the Tail are getting the SACD treatment. I can't wait to hear those. Ok, get back to testing.

>>While we're talking Genesis for a minute, word has it that The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Trick of the Tail are getting the SACD treatment. I can't wait to hear those

Don't think I wanted to hear that. Yes I would LOVE to hear Lamb on SACD. No my DVD and CD players can't handle SACD. The DVD and CD players were the only parts of the system I figured I could leave alone for a while.

>>Going off to try a DVD. Gonna regret this.

Yep, I regret it already.

I suppose this was obvious in hindsight, but the M60s are better for home theater as well. The M60s bass is also good enough that I could live without a subwoofer for quite a long time.

Note to self. Plan ahead next time.

OK, gonna pack it in and get some sleep. Have to wake up soon.

I went through a broad selection of CDs to get a feel for how the M60s handled each different kind of music. With a couple of exceptions, everything sounded just great -- as good as I remember ANY speaker sounding.

The first track of Old Loves Die Hard (Triumvirat) just did not sound right, at least it didn't sound the way I remember the song sounding on top notch speakers. The song has a few "runs" across a set of small drums (are they called toms ?) and the sound of those drums seemed odd. The rest of that album, along with Spartacus and Illusions (my favorite) sounded fantastic, so maybe my memory is a bit off on what those drums are supposed to sound like.

Then again, the last speakers I played that song on heavily were early PSB Betas (with the 8" Philips acoustic feedback woofer and one of the first servo control amplifiers) so maybe the drum sound on the Beta was off. Hard to say -- it was a pretty exotic speaker for its time. I'll try to get a second opinion on another system and let you know.

At the other extreme, Kylie's latest album (Body Language) could have been recorded and mixed for the sole purpose of showing off Axiom speakers. My copy of the CD seems to be a VERY clean recording, with lots of HF energy but a very smooth sound. Both Body Language and Fever sound really good on the Axioms... and Kylie is posing on an original Kawasaki Blue Streak in the Body Language liner, which is another good argument for buying the album.

After way too many hours of listening to the M60s, I guess what impresses me the most is the very "open" sound, sort of a "wall of sound" effect but with very precise sound positioning and a very solid, quiet cabinet.

Something in my basement ceiling is definitely buzzing, however.

Hey bridgman, very interesting read. Great Work!

You were asking about cheaper Denon or H/K 5.1 models? I noticed A&B sound's ( local Electronics shop ) flyer from last week listed the new Denon 1705 for $550 CND. I bet it could be had for $500.0 during a typical sale and even less later in the year.

Cheers, Jag

Canuck Audio Mart

Scroll down to the PRIVATE Classified Ad Categories - you should be able to find some deals there.