Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Better than speakers costing many times the price?

I apologize if I'm breaching netiquette rules in cross-posting this from another forum, but it got hijacked a bit on the other forum and I'm really curious as to this forums' thoughts:

Anyone ever noticed how many reviewers and manufacturers use this term? If so many speakers are really better than others that are much more expensive, doesn't it get to the point where the lower price IS the standard and the others are just overpriced?

I've often found that line amusing, though I don't think it's ever meant to mislead. I've been keeping an eye out for new speakers along the lines of Axioms, Definitives, Paradigms, etc... and it seems like they're ALL truly an excellent value in comparison to years' past. I remember when a NICE set of speakers (2) were many thousands of dollars; it DOES seem as though speakers that are much less expensive than that now approach the same fidelity.

I usually get in much more trouble (regretfully-wise!) by under-purchasing, not over-purchasing. I'm mostly leaning towards a system being fronted by Axiom 60's, but I can't seem to wrap my head around the idea of an $800/pr. speaker being as good as I would hope other speakers costing many times the price would sound.....

I don't want to spend more money needlessly; I just don't want to outgrow them in a short while either.

To those of you that have enjoyed this hobby for a reasonable number of years:

Are speakers REALLY that much better than they used to be? How do some of these sub-$1,000 speakers sound to you in comparison to how you remember some of those multi-thousand dollar classics of yesteryear?

Jeeesh, I'm only 40.... Maybe THAT's why I'm starting to ramble. Next step? Mumbling incoherently while shuffling down the street in my bathrobe and slippers.... Axiom's under each arm....

Mark, there is no doubt whatsoever that in the audio world, some brands are marked up to the point of sillyness but still suck in the overly rich to buy them as 'the world's best'.
Heck, anything over 100k ought to be amazing right?
But is it 95k more amazing than speakers that cost 5k?
That is a question only an individual can answer and convince themself of.

$$ does not equate to quality.

Great question, Mark. And humorously posed. Thanks for sharing. Stay a while.

I like chesseroo's response (typical). Since electronics can be both subjective and a status item, that industry is rife with cachet-priced products. So, I'd agree that, to a point, quality does not increase proportionally to expenditure. That is, for me *personally* the point of diminishing marginal returns is reached fairly rapidly relative to the overall range of prices for a given component type.

But, more on-topic, I DO think speakers are better now than they were historically, and that some manufacturers offer much better value than others. Consumer electronics is perhaps the only area of our lives where you continue to get better products each year for relatively the same or less cost.

My father-in-law offered a great example. Twenty years ago, he bought an IBM PC XT for his business. The system cost about $3,000. He recently replaced his computer with a premium model that cost ... $3,000. The capabilities of these machines differ like night and day, of course. For the same investment, the time value of technology has afforded him much greater value.

Why should speakers be any different? Surely, the economies of scale and advancements in materials and analysis have afforded the Physics Side of the listening equation some advancement over the last 20 years. For my own part, I've spent ~$750 on each of three sets of main speakers over that period (Klipsch, Polk and now the Axiom M60's). I considered each to be a good product and a good value when purchased. And the Axioms are, to my ear, clearly superior to their predecessors. I suspect that, given the similarity of our ages, we both spent a fair amount of time in hi-fi shops over the years. Though the comparisons are not apples-to-apples, my perception is that the listening experience continues to improve while the cost remains relatively flat.

Of course, the creative interpretation is undeniable. There are certainly some speakers costing many times their price that are both inferior and superior to Axioms. It reminds me of the old saw that "there will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself". I guess the point remains that spending more does not necessarily ensure a higher quality experience, especially in audio.

Now, I've got to go change out of my bathrobe. My co-workers are starting to giggle.

Hiya Mark. When you get as old as Jack and I you'll understand rambling. Hmmm, what were we talking abou...? Oh yeah. Chess is correct - it's all in the ears of the beholder and ends up being subjective.

I spent way too much time auditioning speakers before deciding on the M60/VP100/QS8 set. Most of what I auditioned were much more expensive. In the end, the M60s, at least to my ears, sounded exactly like the B&W 703s, which go for $3000+ per pair. spiffnme shares the same opinion I believe. Go give the B&Ws a listen and see what you think. I am totally satisifed with the Axioms and still grin when someone shows up at the house and reacts to them in such a positive manner.

To be fair though, those B&W 703's are beautiful! I truly gorgeous looking speaker. I don't want people to think I'm ragging on the B&W's. They sound and look terrific. The only catch is they're really, really pricey.

Absolutely agree with that assessment spiff. I keep bringing them up in instances like this to provide those that haven't / can't audition the M60s with an alternative that sounds the same.

>>Are speakers REALLY that much better than they used to be? How do some of these sub-$1,000 speakers sound to you in comparison to how you remember some of those multi-thousand dollar classics of yesteryear?

I went through the speaker-building phase 25 years ago because at the time it was the only way to afford REALLY good mid-sized speakers. In the late 70s good, reasonably priced small 2-way speakers were just starting to appear (EPI, Advent, early PSB etc...) but larger speakers tended to be either really crappy or really expensive (or, miraculously, both ).

If you wanted a larger, high quality speaker at a reasonable price building with KEF or Philips components was pretty much your only option. The big problem was that nobody outside of the very high end market seemed to have figured out that the cabinet mattered. Walls were thin, bracing was non-existent.

The small British speakers (Rogers etc...) were setting the standard for solid, neutral speakers but from what I remember it was another 15-20 years before the mainstream speakers caught up and started building solid, well engineered cabinets at a reasonable price.

I don't have my old Rogers monitors ($$$) for comparison but I would not be surprised if the M2i's equalled or surpassed them. I just don't remember any speakers at the time which would compete with M60s for value and performance. There were speakers comparable to M60 on the market but they cost waaay over $1000 when a small car only cost $2000 !!

Yes Mark, many of those speakers are simply overpriced, often to a gross degree. In general in audio there's very little correlation between price and sound quality and it's very easy not to get what you paid for. This is particularly true for items such as players and receiver/amps where sound quality doesn't differ, but is also true to a lesser extent for speakers, where audible differences are a reality. So, get those M60s and wrap your head around the idea that you've got a terrific bargain.

This could get pretty subjective. I would say up to about US$3K, *most of the time* you get what you paid for, do those upper range speakers really cost that much to make? absolutely not. But there's always exception, such as companies like Axiom and Paradigms, they makes affortable great speakers, and in this case I do believe you do get MORE than what you paid, IMO the Axiom set a hardcore standard that NOT many companies can quite match, and this mean only one thing....competition. Eventually the rest of the competitors will be forced to either 1)improve their design, 2)put a lower price tag on their mid to higher level stuff in order to compete, or 3)create more snake-oils for all those suckers out there in order to maintain or generate more revenue. Don't forget technology is getting more advanced everyday, and WE, the consumer, definitely will be able to get much better quality products, more options, at an affortable price.
Also keep in mind that different stroke for different folks, My brother use nothing but KEF's reference stuff, do they sound good to me? yes, but are they good enough for me to envy then run out and grab me a couple pairs? nope. Because they do not sound as natural to my ears, they're way too laid back, not my cup of tea.

Have you actually A-B your Axioms with some of those "snake-oil" speakers you are talking about. Some speaker actually do sound better than the Axiom. Yes at a price. But those people CAN afford it.

Thank you to all of you who took some time to respond!

I have not yet had the opportunity to audition many speakers, but my game plan at this point is to order the Axiom 60s to try them out.

You should all be on commission!

Saturn,

Trying to be a smartass again eh? perhaps you should read my post again, I did say most of the time you get what you paid for, and that including speakers that cost couple times more that also able to out perform the Axiom, as for the Snakeoils I was refering to, aheh...I'll give you two examples, 1st, the Alon Napoleon, retail for $2499, 4 satellites with a sub and was being recommended by their Sales Rep to outgun and rival $20K speakers, give them a listen and I'm sure you'll love them, hey...only $2499, isn't that affortable enough for sucker like you?
2nd, the famous White-Van's high end Digital towers that were "retail" for thousands of dollars as well, I don't even need to listen to them, one look at the Van, the young punks and those HIGH END speakers, I'd dismissed those scumback in less than 3 seconds. Knowing some of "those people" like you that "CAN affort it", I sure would refer them to you next time when I ran across these nice folks again...muahahaha.

By the way, being able to afford a product, and being a sucker is two different thing, incase you haven't noticed. LOL

In reply to:

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Knowing some of "those people" like you that "CAN affort it", I sure would refer them to you next time when I ran across these nice folks again...muahahaha.

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Whats the website?

never get to ask for their website but I still see them once awhile around here infront of the Wachovia Bank parking lot, sometime infront of the shopping mall. My good ol' ears are getting rusty and probably can't keep up with yours, so I'll refer them to you and maybe you ought to give these bad boys a listen, they looks high-end with a high-end price tag to boot, so...they MUST BE GOOD!! :-) Though I think I came across a website with their high end stuff on it, I'll have to dig around and see if I can find the link for you...heh.

I think my ears are older than yours...last I cleaned it.

dema,
I don't think the taunting or name calling is necessary.
Saturn is entitled to his opinion and has been posting many interesting links to provide evidence towards his points for quite a long time. He is one of the few that keep hanging in and he's darn thick skinned for doing it.

I agreed, though I'm only responding to him in the exact same manner he did in the first place, especially to his "kiss my kulos you Malaka" remark....heh. :-)

Sorry I take it back. I like to frazzle once in a while. I apologize for my childish behaviours. I know it won't be my last.

short and simple answer to the original question-ive heard speakers in the 2500 dollar range that i wouldnt pick over my m-80s even if they were 1100 dollars

>>You should all be on commission!

Nah, I don't think any of us would work this hard for a lousy paycheck