Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: beheading video...should one watch?

Hey folks,

I was listening to some talk radio last night and they were talking about how Americans have a "responsibility" to view the footage of American civilians being beheaded by terrorists. Fine, I thought, I'll check it out. Now I'm REALLY wishing I hadn't. I'm never all that grossed out by Hollywood violence, but seeing this was different. I'll respectfully spare you the details, suffice to say I was physically ill, and all day today I can't seem to get the images and the sounds (which were the worst part IMO) out of my head.

On the other hand, having actually seen the footage has made me reevaluate some of my opinions. I consider myself a moderate Democrat, who has been unpersuaded thus far by Bush's strategy for fighting terrorism. After seeing the video, though, I at least realize now that there is absolutely NO reasoning with terrorists. No amount of diplomacy or concessions will ever deter them. I think now that terrorists simply have to be hunted down one by one and eliminated. Liberals who think terrorism would disappear if we were just more diplomatic in our approach to the Middle East I think are rather naive.

I still don't think Bush is the answer. There needs to be a combination of diplomacy backed by a strong, aggressive military. Going into Iraq without more international support was stupid. Trying to defend the invasion of Iraq on the basis of faulty intelligence instead of gross violations of human rights was stupid (no matter what he says now, before the war, Bush talked about WMD's and terrorist connections, NOT the cruelty of Saddam Hussein, which would've been a lot more persuasive to the international community. I watch Powell's U.N. presentation before the war. It sure didn't convince me of anything). Giving all these rebuilding contracts to American companies rather than Iraqi companies was stupid. Flip-flopping on the 9/11 Commission was stupid. Not sending in an even stronger force to protect the civilians was stupid.

Still, one thing I had to accept after seeing the video of the beheading is that we do have to have resolve, which Bush does have (I just don't think he has the intelligence and sense to know what to do what that resolve).

Anyway, what do you all think? Do we owe it to ourselves to view one of these beheading videos? If you have viewed one, what were your impressions? Were you as traumatized as I was? If so, how long did it take you to get over it? Has it changed or colored your opinions of terrorism and what we're purportedly doing to stop it?

Just curious,
-JT

Saw it, and it disturbed me tremendously. It hasn't changed my views on the war in Iraq though.

My advice is DON'T watch any of the videos.

i am embarassed to say that i have watched several of them. i have no explanation as to why.. maybe a morbid curiosity? i dont know.. but, i dont agree with the radio people.. we have no "responsibility" to watch them. it is not our duty as americans, to view a crime committed by people that have no regard what so ever to the american way of life. in fact, they are highly motivated by their extreme disgust of our way of life.

i think watching the videos comes down to the individual. can you handle it? do you think you need to see it? the first one i saw made me ill, and stayed with me for days, maybe weeks. now, they effect me no more than watching the news. its sad, and i feel bad for these people and their families, but it no longer disturbs me like the first one did. i cant explain why.. maybe i have become numb or immune to it? or maybe i just dont care anymore?? i dont know, but i take no pride in feeling that way.. thats just the way it is.....

i will say this though.. after the first one, i did feel a lot less pity for those people.. here's why.. unless you are in the military, and are forced to be there, then GET THE F*CK OUT!!!!!!! there is no job or relief effort worth putting yourself in the position to have that happen to you.. i know it might be a mean way to look at it, but as far as i am concerned, when those people stayed in that country, they made their beds and they got to lie in them. that dont mean what happened to them was right, but i sure now my fat-a$$ would have been on the first flight home.

i dont know if i answered your questions, or caused new ones.. i was kinda typing as i was thinkin.. so be it!

bigjohn

Hey Big J,

That's interesting what you said, and no, I don't think it's necessarily cold of you to say that those American civilians shouldn't be there in the first place. After seeing the video, I can safely say that I'm never gonna step within 5000 miles of the Middle East. Screw that! They don't know want us there? Fine!

After being so sickened by seeing the first video, what made you watch another one? Was it really just morbid curiosity (and that's okay if it was--face it, humans are curious about death), or was it something more you think?

I agree, we have no "duty" or "responsibility" or whatever to watch that stuff. And it's wrong to pressure people to watch it. Although if people are arguing that terrorists can be reasoned and negotiated with, viewing one of these videos may change their mind. It sure changed mine!

-JT

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Was it really just morbid curiosity

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i think so..

i was talking about it with a friend of mine, and he said he had went and looked at all of them. he made me laugh when he said, "i kinda got bored with it.. if you've seen one, you have seen them all"... it was more of a scared laugh, cause i was thinking to myself, 'who would have ever thought we would get so used to watching people get their heads chopped off?' i became alarmed with how easy we were talking about it, like we were discussing what we ate for dinner last night. there seemed to be no heightened level of alarm, like what you would expect with that sort of subject matter.

trust me, i get no pleasure when watching the videos.. i think what bothers me more is the fact that i dont think i feel enought remorse. at least not anymore......

bigjohn

without getting into the politics of it, I saw one before and was pretty disturbed by it. It wasn't an Iraq one but a chechan/russian one. The sound was unimaginable. It was only about a minute long but I spent the first 30 second wondering if it was real since I had never seen anything like that. I skipped everyone since.

I think viewing violence of any kind and becomeing numb to it is a big problem in the U.S. and everywhere. If people become numb to violence it is easier for them to justify violence. Look at our kids today. I would say that children who watch and become numb to violence is one of the reasons violent crime rates among children and teens has been on the increase. They no longer see violence for what it truly is . Just my opinion.
OK, maybe this should move to the politics thread.

I was just thinking that this sounds like it could be the start of another politics thread. We'll need a whole politics forum by the time this election rolls around.

even though it is wrong,after seing the videos,i developed a hatred for middle eastern people,such as going into a gas station/store with a serious attitude just trying to push buttons just to almost have a reason for violence,like i said it is wrong on my part and that attitude thankfully only lasted a couple of days,im ashamed that i was like that,but im being honest,im not really like that but the videos really pissed me off

forgot to menton,Legairre,who has posted a couple of times, came over for a demo of the m80s and vp150 he was totally impressed,he will be posting his thoughts this weekend...ron

This subject raises a number of questions which are related to entertainment. The question of how our kids are being affected by all the violence they see and perform on screen, the difference and confusion between real and fictional violence, how quickly we can become desensitized to violence.

The fact is that what we see on video tapes is still just taped violence, far removed from the actual witnessing of the event. What so you think the smell is like? The feel of emotions in the room?

Having traveled some in the middle east and having many friends who have also, I think it is important to recognize that what we are getting now through the media is the extreme end of things. What we are talking about here is life in a war zone, is any war all that different or better? None that I've heard about.

And finally what effect do you think the U.S. entertainment industry has in the rest of of the world, on unsophisticated peoples? How do we look creating great scenes of slaughter and mayhem for entertainment, not to mention what is to traditional cultures, floods of depraved sexuality, greed and horror. Are we so accoustomed to these things that we can't imagine how they look to others? I can tell you they see plenty.

As horrible as the beheadings are, are the images we send out to the rest of the world really better? If you slaughtered your animals with a knife for food would these beheadings have the same impact? If in that context you saw what we watch for entertainment what would you think of our culture?

I saw that chechen beheading video sort of by accident a year or so ago. It is extremely disturbing, needless to say I don’t want to see any other beheading or like video, …once is enough. Regarding the beheadings taking place in Iraq, feeling angry after watching a video like that is totally understandable. I try to put things into perspective; US and Iraq are at WAR. Having said that doesn’t mean that in some way that horrible and barbaric act is justified nor I’m implying that they are some sort of freedom fighters from Iraq. It’s just that war will always bring the very worst in human kind. BTW: Have any of you seen the US Apache helicopter video allegedly showing the Apache crew killing what appears to be farmers in Iraq, it’s also very disturbing.

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Have any of you seen the US Apache helicopter video allegedly showing the Apache crew killing what appears to be farmers in Iraq, it’s also very disturbing.

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I've seen the video, but it wasn't farmers. The Apache was apparently firing upon a group of insurgents as they were leaving a mosque. Somebody at work actually forwarded it with the subject "wrong place at the wrong time." sicko.

I saw one of those damn videos too. I haven't been the same since. A friend of mine sent me a link, I was curious and I didn’t think it would bother me. However I regret that I was very wrong. It’s been two weeks now and I still haven’t been able to shake the disturbing event. It is no doubt the most violent and barbaric disregard to human life I have seen.
I don’t think we “owe it to our selves” to see the videos. Most people get it when they read the paper or watch the news.
The terrorists are trying to get into our heads. They have succeeded with these videos. They are our enemies and will do what ever it takes to see us completely destroyed. This video was meant for us to see, IMO. They are trying any tactic they can to ruin our lifestyle. I may not agree with what is going on in Iraq, however I am very thankful that it’s happening on their soil and not our own.
I also went through a stage that gave me a severe attitude toward that ethnic group, I feel better knowing that I’m not the only one that’s pissed off.
Anyway, if you haven’t seen it, don’t. It will make you mentally and physically ill.

I think that out of respect to the families, we shouldn't be watching these videos at all. Those guys screaming as their heads are sawed off were somebody's babies once - rocked to sleep and read to. Really terrible culture over there. Blow up 35 Iraqi children to accomplish what?
JT, why not join the debate in the politics thread?

Hey,

Yeah, I thought about discussing this on the political thread, but I really wanted to isolate this one particular issue from all the other political rant, because it's just affected me so much these past few days. Even though I went on my own little anti-Bush rant, I didn't really want this topic to devolve into a Kerry vs. Bush debate where everybody either tries to sound like some smartass John Stewart wannabe or just rehashes the same tired diatribes we've heard from both sides.

Like some you, it's been four days and I still can't get that video out of mind! I've looked at pretty explicity gross stuff before (like the time my friends got me to check out consumptionjunction.com or one of those "Faces of Death" videos), but it was more than just the gruesomeness of the scene. It was sheer evil such that I have never witnessed before. If they had just shot the guy in the back of the head, I could've handled that, but the excrutiangly methodical way in which they murdered this man was more than I could bear. Yeah, I know this stuff happens in the world, but there's still something different about actually seeing it. By the way, the one I saw was Eugene Armstrong's execution, not that it matters.

I'm a pretty emotionally stable guy, so I've been surprised at how disturbed I've been. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that was gullible enough to think I could watch it and not be rather traumatized. It really pisses me off that some people are pressuring us to watch these videos. Most of those folks seem to be strongly pro-war, and they think that by watching these videos and realizing how terrible our enemy is, we'll be more in favor of Bush and the Iraqi occupation. By like some of you said, that's exactly what the terrorists want us to do, and to live in fear as a result. As for the war, I don't think any of us are against fighting terrorism and taking every single one of those bastards out. What we disagree on is the strategy--not the final goal. Watching these videos hasn't changed my opinions one bit on that issue. The only thing the video has done is strengthen my view that diplomacy and concessions will NOT work with terrorists, it will only strengthen them (and don't you think Kerry knows that?). I didn't need to see one of those videos to come to that conclusion.

Anyway, keep chiming in, no matter what your views are! I for on will totally respect you whether you're pro-Bush or pro-Kerry. It's just really interesting to hear what others' responses have been to these videos and their own viewpoints on the matter.

-JT

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I'm a pretty emotionally stable guy, so I've been surprised at how disturbed I've been.

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Be glad your disturbed! Take comfort from it. I'd be a lot more worried if I watched it, and then slept like a baby. I'm sorry you've had to go through this. I'm a Viet Nam veteran and believe me, I'm not gonna watch it. Been there, done that.

Hey Mark,

In response to your quote:

"As horrible as the beheadings are, are the images we send out to the rest of the world really better? If you slaughtered your animals with a knife for food would these beheadings have the same impact? If in that context you saw what we watch for entertainment what would you think of our culture?"

I understand what you're saying. We do glorify violence in our culture; we sensationalize it on the news and in the movies. That's an unfortunate quality in our culture. But in all respect, I don't think you can compare fake over-the-top violence in Hollywood films or video games or instantly and painlessly killing a cow so we can eat our Big Macs to kidnapping innocent men, slowly sawing their heads off while they're still alive, video taping it and sending the footage out to the world. One thing, there's the question of intent. It's a lot worse when you're intentionally seeking to horrify another culture. It's different when you accidentally do it because you don't realize that another culture holds cows as sacred or something. Also, I don't think you can hold the life of an animal as equal to that of a person. Yes, I'm a big environmentalist and I want to protect our wildlife, but I just can't compare people with cows and chickens. Finally, I'm sure that many of our Hollywood movies probably are very offensive and disturbing. That's why we give them ratings and warn people not to watch them if they're turned off by that stuff. Also, it's not REAL. If a culture is so primitive and simple that they can't tell the difference, then they probably don't own TV's and VCR's anyway and so can't watch those movies, so it's a moot point.

So, to answer your question: yeah, it's A LOT WORSE to kidnap innocent men, saw their heads off, video tape it, and send the footage out to the world than it is to film Friday the 13, pt. XXVI while chowin' down on some Chicken McNuggets.

I have not seen any of the beheading videos. It had occurred to me that I could probably find a link and watch one, but I just didn't feel any desire to do so. It's an interesting question, though, and reading it here has made me ask myself why I haven't watched them, or why I think I shouldn't. After thinking about it, I can come up with several reasons. At least some of these have been my reasons, though not so completely verbalized in my mind. Others may not have been in my mind before thinking about this.

1. I don't need to see it to understand it. I can imagine the victim's terror and the brutality of the act - what a horrible way to spend one's final moments of precious life on this planet. I don't need to actually see it to appreciate the meaning of it. I did watch many times the videos of the jets crashing into the World Trade Center, and those buildings collapsing. Not quite as personal, but that was watching thousands of people dying. In a way, though, I think I did need to see that to understand it. It was just too big, too far removed from any normal reality, to fully grasp without seeing it.

2. There's a limit to how much sadness and brutality I want to absorb into my consciousness. Perhaps one day there will be internet videos of the butchery in the Sudan, of gang rapes in American cities, of 35 children getting blown up in Iraq, of torture in Chinese prisons, of a mob killing in Russia, of forced prostitution in Thailand, etc., etc. (the list could go on for a long, long time). We live in a world where all these things occur, but I don't want to see those videos, either. Some of those events we can try to do something about, some of them we haven't much of a chance. My personal mental and spiritual balance requires that I nurture positive emotions and outlook. That doesn't mean denying all the horrible things that go on, but it may mean not going out of my way to absorb them in ways that are shocking and disturbing for days or weeks.

3. I find it more respectful to the victims and their families not to watch. It is an intensely personal event to those persons. I'm somewhat uncomfortable about a human being's last moments before and during a barbaric murder being available for me to watch in the comfort of my home. I doubt I would like it if the victim were my son or daughter and I could overhear conversations in the grocery about strangers watching the video of my child's death, or come across a discussion on the internet. If a member of my family were brutally murdered, I wouldn't want the autopsy photos printed in the newspaper.

4. The terrorists want us to watch them. Part of their audience is no doubt their own supporters, but I believe they also seek to inflict fear on us through these videos. I don't want to give them that satisfaction, and I also don't want to live my life in fear. I believe that we have succumbed to fear of terrorism to too great an extent in this country. We can't let it paralyze us. We are in an ugly war that is going to last a long, long time, and I believe there WILL be additional successful terrorist attacks within the U.S., no matter how hard or how intelligently our government and we try to prevent them. It is just a fact. We need to accept that and continue on with our lives, or they will win. I recall hearing that a North Vietnamese leader was interviewed during the war and asked how such a small impoverished country could possibly hope to defeat the world's greatest military power. His response was something like, "They will kill many of us. We will kill some of them. They will tire of it first."

5. I don't want to have to wonder about my motives for watching it. I certainly don't believe I have a responsibility as an American to watch it (discussed more below). Why would I watch it? I don't want to have to ask myself whether any part of my motives for watching it included morbid curiosity, excitement, entertainment, rage, prejudice, or any other such emotion that could possibly be triggered by such a video, but I really don't want to nurture or face in myself. If someone gave me the opportunity to watch a "snuff film" and told me that I couldn't really understand how men brutalize women until I saw it, would I wonder if I watched it whether some hidden part of me found it arousing like the sickos who make those films? I don't feel a need to take a journey into the heart of darkness.

As for someone on talk radio suggesting we have a responsibility to watch these videos, I'm guessing that this might be conservative talk radio (not sure if there's any other kind), and the speaker wants folks to watch them so that the videos will affect what the public believes should be done in the war on terror, in Iraq, or in the voting booth in four weeks. Perhaps an all-out effort to track down and kill every single terrorist in the world is the best tactic. Perhaps not, or perhaps not to the exclusion of other tactics. Terrorism is a complex problem, and I personally do not think that basing our course of action in any significant measure on the very visceral feelings of disgust and horror that arise from watching these videos is necessarily the wisest way to proceed. We need to try harder to understand our enemy in order to win this war more quickly. If we just plunge ahead on the basis of gut reactions, I anticipate a lot of errors in judgment, where our actions may prove to not only be ineffective, but counterproductive. I'm outraged by terrorism, but fighting it effectivly requires cool heads and careful analysis and planning. Does watching these videos help with that?

I agree 100%. I usually pick and choose things I think I might be able to absorb without any negative effects. This time I was very wrong and have learned a lifelong lesson.
In the future, I will not be so tempted to risk contaminating my mind.
I too embrace a positive outlook and try to guard my mind from negative events such as this.

Denver, I really enjoyed your post. I think you wrote a very thoughtful and meaningful reply! I embrace the same values you do. I just couldn’t verbalize it the way you did!
Thanks!

the sad part is,i watched the news the other day and the reporter said the beheading videos are the best seller over there

They obviously have a total barbaric culture. It's a shame that humans thrive on this.
I would feel the same way if I saw an Iraqi getting his head cut off. A life is a life!

Denver,

Very well said, and I agree 100% with every one of your reasons for not watching the videos. I wished I had read your post before I made the mistake of watching one. I know, emotionally, I'll get over seeing it, as BigJohn pointed out he did, but it'll take a few days if not a few weeks. And I'll never be able to erase it from my mind.

md55, your post shocked me. Are you really equating theatrical depictions of violence with video taped snuff films of the real thing? Are you saying that our media depictions of violence have in any way made these barbarian thugs more likely to cut off the heads of infidels than they would have been without our films? Correct me if I misunderstand your proposition, but is your sub-text implication that our movies speak to a culture as depraved as one that celebrates videos of actual murders?

We may be horrified by viewing these videos, but not only are they best sellers in Arab societies, but they are powerful recruiting tools! Yes, the sight of the faithful cutting off the heads of Jews and "Crusaders" is a powerful source of pride, empowerment and a demonstration that these folks are winning the war, their war, their Jihad against the West, modernity, civilization, culture, ethics ...

BTW, I liked Kill Bill I and II, but it did not desensitize me to cruelty or incline me to go out and hurt another human being. The values of that culture resonate to the snuff videos of actual murder, they are celebrated.

Think about it md55.

I'm really surprised this bothers anyone... a single person dying? Come on, the media hardly covers megadeath (not the band - the tongue in cheek term for over 1000 people killed) but some guy getting his head sawed off is news?

One person coughing up the spark of life just seems so insignificant compared to something as simple as a signature on a piece of paper ordering economic sanctions that kill 10,000 people a month... air campaigns killing 2500 people a day... lax labour laws that kill a few hundred workers a day... one guy? All you can offer me is one decapitation? Tsk... I'll take that with my morning cereal.

Least someone performing one of these is enough of a hands-on type to actually get a little sticky... get a snootful of that copper smell. Not enough people take enough pride in their work anymore.

Bren R.

Hey Bren,

Just wondering if you've actually watched one these videos?

I mean, I get what you're saying, but there's still a big difference. Watching someone, even if it's just one person, have their head slowly sawed off with a kitchen knife, hearing their strained screams turn to gurgles and gasps as their windpipe is severed...dude, I know you're trying to be all witty and smooth and normally I'm down with that, but the issue here isn't simply the death of one man, and for me personally, it's just not something I'm ready to laugh off yet.

Bren, thinking a little more about what you said...I guess if I hadn't stupidly watched the video for myself, I would probably be more inclined to go along with what you're saying.

Maybe that's something we could get into on this thread: why is that witnessing one man die in such a horrible way troubles us so much more than the knowledge that government policies throughout the world cause the death of thousands?

JT- I dunno, call me callused, but yeah, I get emailed this stuff, and watch it... and it doesn't bother me as much as I'm told it should. After seeing photos from Abu Ghraib, seeing mass graves on every continent in the world, watching Palestinian children ending their lives as sappers against US-bought Israeli tanks - you name it, I expect very little out of the human race in war and pseudo-war conditions.

Conversely, I've been in funeral processions for a 16 year old construction worker killed due to employer negligence and a 26 year old Prime Minister's Honour Guard Piper killed by an impared driver and somehow that seems a lot more wrong to me.

I think the whole feeling is summed up best in an Anti-Flag lyric : "I feel less hopeful and less human as I'm reduced to nothing more than cheering on embassy bombings as the liars pave their way through four more years of war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom"

I'm not trying to be political, I just have trouble understanding why one person's death stirs up so much outrage and another death is either overlooked or cheered. I am a global citizen.

Bren R.

Bren,

Yeah, I hear ya. And hey, if you're not as troubled by it as I am, that's okay. People are different. I am also troubled by the things you mentioned, just not on such an emotional level because I haven't personally witnessed it. Obviously, I was troubled by the beheadings before I actually watched one of them, but by actually seeing it, my emotions have been more intensely engaged and it's a much more visceral thing for me now.

In regards to your quote: "Conversely, I've been in funeral processions for a 16 year old construction worker killed due to employer negligence and a 26 year old Prime Minister's Honour Guard Piper killed by an impared driver and somehow that seems a lot more wrong to me."

Those are horrible things as well, but why do you think they're actually A LOT MORE wrong than the beheadings?

There are people on both sides of any conflict that do harm to the other side, and there are the propaganists that are paid to use it to each side's interest. Atrocities are as old as time, but set to the right music and being told the perspective it should be put into, they're still very powerful for uniting a group of people.

I just think it odd that something like this that hardly touches anyone's life (you don't know the person beheaded, or his family, never met the guy, probably don't even know his name) has a large group of people cooked up into war fever, wanting revenge... but for each of us who have lost a friend or family member to something that is preventable (everyone here has lost someone to cancer, heart disease, petty crime, corporate crime) but hardly anyone honours this loss with the same intensity.

Just one of those odd things that occurs to someone disturbed and yet morbidly curious about human psychology.

Bren R.

Interesting! Bren, you seem to blame the US for the thousands of Iraqis who died during the sanctions regime. You must have missed the memo. Billions stolen by Saddam Hussein and his French, Russian and Chinese cohorts. The money that got through did make fine additions to his collection of super palaces while babies starved - but then again, you didn't eat unless you got a government ration card and the Ba'athist Nazi regime had better things to do with their money, the Food for Oil Money. But Bren, makes you feel good to blame the bad old USA, knock yourself out.

You don't really believe the propaganda that the US killed 2500 civilians a day during the bombing campaign of Iraq do you? I suppose it fits in with your world view, so who cares if it's nonsense.

It's very instructive to learn from someone so highly evolved, so seeped in the cruelty of US policies that the images of people sawing off the heads of living human beings doesn't move you. It's personal, It's horrible, it's murder. Doesn't bother you? You are special.

I downloaded two terrorist beheading videos earlier.

One of the men, Eugine, was still trying to breathe after the saw was halfway through his throat and what I was thinking of is wheather the audio effects were added by them because he couldn't have been alive that long after he had his throat sawed into. I thought they added the effects to make it look more gruesome and sickening, since Hensley died instantly after his throat was cut yet Eugine was still making noises that sounded like these doctored artifacts halfway into the video.

I can't believe I could watch that and only be thinking about that. I didn't make any expressions that'd lead one to think I was watching a real man have his head cut off opposed to a downloaded sitcom. I didn't feel disturbed by it at all. I'm appalled with myself and wish I never saw them. I'm more appalled with how I reacted to what I saw than I am with what I saw. The price to pay for curiousity, I suppose. I can just imagine what horror the person felt as this was just about to happen to him, and as it was actually happening to him, but I'm not nearly as disgusted by it, if much at all compared to the others who've posted their reactions. The worst case scenario in watching this was that I'd laugh as if it was a movie and go 'ouch', but I was at least able to realize that this was real and not something to laugh at in the context that 'he got owned', as I wouldn't be able to live with myself if that was how I reacted to this kind of thing. I won't be downloading any more of these, and the talk radio shows that say Americans have a 'responsibility' to watch these beheading videos are out of their mind. It was a retarded decision for me to watch these in the first place. I wish I hadn't.

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I just think it odd that something like this that hardly touches anyone's life (you don't know the person beheaded, or his family, never met the guy, probably don't even know his name) has a large group of people cooked up into war fever, wanting revenge... but for each of us who have lost a friend or family member to something that is preventable (everyone here has lost someone to cancer, heart disease, petty crime, corporate crime) but hardly anyone honours this loss with the same intensity.

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Preventable vs unpreventable is one way to look at it, but intentional vs unintentional is another. No one specific person inflicted cancer on a person. Drunk driving is preventable, but a drunk driver hitting a person wasn't intentional. I think it's easier for people to forgive mistakes and accidents than for them to forgive intentional executions.

Actually, 2x6... in regards to sanctions, you can take your pick of any of them... Iraq, Cuba, Libya, Burma, Iran, Zaire, Angola...

... some of us have longer memories than the news of the day at CNN.

Getting any deeper into the politics of this would be something more for the politics thread, which, in the best interest of goodwill between people here, I don't read.

You completely failed to see my point in my posts about numbers and causes of deaths and instead reverted to "My Country Right Or Wrong Defensive Position #363".

Bren R.

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No one specific person inflicted cancer on a person.

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True, usually it takes an entire industry (ie: tobacco).

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Drunk driving is preventable, but a drunk driver hitting a person wasn't intentional.

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I still see this as kind of a "but your Honour, I spun the cylinder and pulled the trigger, it's not like I knew which chamber it would stop on" issue.

Just looking for people to open their minds on the numbers of people lost each year and maybe rethink their reactions to these.

Bren R.

If US policy is not to trade with certain countries, that's our policy, even when it may be a wrong policy as in the case of Cuba, or a right policy as in the case of Myanma. International sanctions against Libya and Iran make sense to me, but then again if you have an affinity for totalitarian terrorist police state regimes in search of nuclear weapons, well then maybe you disagree.

As to those poor Palestinian children who you so kindly refer to as "sappers," perhaps you approve of a culture which makes rock stars out of kids who strap explosives to themselves in the hopes of killing Jews in pizza parlors and busses, for a promise of 72 virgins. But hey, their parents are proud and get large checks from Saudi charities for their children's sacrifice. So, hey, Bren, if you see that carnage as heroic, that must be "Let's Stand Firm With the Nazis of the World If They'll Stick a Finger in the Eye of Bad Old USA and its Friends, # 363."

BrenR,

RE:
"I'm really surprised this bothers anyone... a single person dying? Come on, the media hardly covers megadeath (not the band - the tongue in cheek term for over 1000 people killed) but some guy getting his head sawed off is news?"

I'm not saying you are wrong, however I read the paper everyday and watch or listen to the news. I'm disturbed 80% of the time by what I learn from it. I try not to dwell on things I can't directly control as a result I'm outraged.
Now reading something in black and white or listening to some well dressed news guy is a hell of a lot different than seeing some poor guy slowly getting his head cut off and hearing him gasping to get his last breath of air is the most impacting tragic event I’ve been exposed to. Yes, there are lots of tragic events around the world but we don’t see it on video. We don’t see the babies getting slaughtered, women being raped and 1000 of people being massacred. If videos where available the same way the decapitation was I think more people would be more understanding to how jacked up this world can be. I’m fortunate enough to not allow myself to become desensitized by the $hit that takes place around the world.

Now if the terrorists would have just shot the man and allowed him the freedom to a quick death I don’t think this would’ve been a huge topic. The way these evil bastards murdered this man is what I am so disturbed about. These bastards don’t give a $hit about our freedom, our western culture (this includes Canada) and obviously life in general. They would be more than happy to kill us all the same way.

Just my opinion….

In reply to:

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"Now if the terrorists would have just shot the man and allowed him the freedom to a quick death I don’t think this would’ve been a huge topic. The way these evil bastards murdered this man is what I am so disturbed about."

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Goodness gracious, tleigh, please don't take this wrong, but, do you think we might be getting a bit desensitized to evil ... to cruel murder? Do we need a sadistic, dramatic means of accomplishing murder before it outrages us?

Murder is just that. None of it is acceptable. My point was just what you pointed out. I'm upset about all murder, I just don't think the video would have been available for us to see if they would of shot the men. Do you understand what I meant to say now?

I also didn't take it the wrong way you pointed out exactly what I wanted to get out.

Tom

I made no equations. I simply proposed that we look at what are the real world effects of different perceptions and actions in order to find a course through life with less conflict and violence. If the beheaders are using poorly constructed equations I do not find particular value in other poor constructions as a response.

In reply to:

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And finally what effect do you think the U.S. entertainment industry has in the rest of of the world, on unsophisticated peoples? How do we look creating great scenes of slaughter and mayhem for entertainment, not to mention what is to traditional cultures, floods of depraved sexuality, greed and horror. Are we so accoustomed to these things that we can't imagine how they look to others? I can tell you they see plenty.

As horrible as the beheadings are, are the images we send out to the rest of the world really better? If you slaughtered your animals with a knife for food would these beheadings have the same impact? If in that context you saw what we watch for entertainment what would you think of our culture?

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I see, md55, brothers kill their sisters with the approval of their families, honor killings, child marriage, slavery and systematic sexual abuse of slaves (what Muqtadar Al Sadr and various mullahs refer to as "sex slaves") and you criticize us for flooding that 'peaceful society' with a flood of "depraved sexuality" from Hollywood?

Moral relativism.

What is it that we do that you equate to the "poorly constructed equation" of cutting the heads off of living human beings?

Let's take a look at an excerpt from an Egyptian 9-11th grade text books:

A description of Jihad in Grade 11 from an al-Azhar religious schoolbook makes compelling reading, as do two other descriptions of Jihad in Egyptian State schools, Grade 9 & 10, that are also reproduced here, and in more detail in our written statement NGO/27 to the UN Sub-Commission:

“[One] of the rules derived by the [religious] scholars from these [Qur'anic] verses is the following: Obligation to fight the infidels with utmost vigor and power until they become weak, their state disappears and they submit to the rule of the law of Islam.” – Commentary, the Surahs of Muhammad, Al-Fath, Al-Hujurat & Qaf, Grade 11 (2002, pp. 312), p. 24 (al-Azhar)

And now two more ordinary quotations from books in the State schools:

“Jihad is honour. Inability to perform it is a cause for grief.”
– Islamic Education, Grade 10, (2002, pp. 111) p. 69 (State school)

“Jihad is one of Heaven's gates. Whoever desists from it willingly is humiliated by God...” – Arabic Literature: Literature, Texts, Eloquence, Grade 9, (2002, pp. 201) p. 144 (State school)

But it is once again the al-Azhar teaching that goes to the core of this gruesome subject. Pious justifications are offered to Grade 11 students concerning the reasons for beheading infidels:

“When you meet them in order to fight [them], do not be seized by compassion [toward them], but strike the[ir] necks powerfully…Striking the neck means fighting, because killing a person is often done by striking off his head…This expression contains a harshness and emphasis that are not found in the word “kill”, because it describes killing in the ugliest manner, “i.e. cutting the neck and making the organ – the head of the body – fly off [the body]” – Commentary on Surahs of Muhammad, Al-Fath, Al-Hujurat, Qaf, Grade 11 (2002), pp.19-20.

So md55, where do you think these folks get their idea that it's OK to cut the heads off of Christians and Jews? Do you think it's our fault, our media, our "depraved" movies?

I think if you want to criticize a culture constructively in order "to find a course through life with less conflict" you may want to start with a systematic program of the education of children which encourages them to cut the heads off of Christians and Jews.

I highly recomend "WAR IS THE FORCE THAT GIVES US MEANING" by Chris Hedges if you want to understand the reasons why you were encouraged to watch those videos, very incitful book about the processes that foment war.

I don't think we are encouraged to watch those videos, but certainly, they are best sellers in the Middle East. Are you saying that it is war which gives their lives meaning?

The post was in response to:

"It really pisses me off that some people are pressuring us to watch these videos. Most of those folks seem to be strongly pro-war, and they think that by watching these videos and realizing how terrible our enemy is, we'll be more in favor of Bush and the Iraqi occupation. By like some of you said, that's exactly what the terrorists want us to do, and to live in fear as a result."

I recommend reading the book, it is titled: “War is a force that gives US meaning”. It is about the universal processes of war. It speaks very directly to the above.

2x6sps my post was focused on trying tp step outside particular cultural filters and to look at a spectrum of violent video material through an array of possible filters or biases. The purpose of this is understanding. Do you think that the filter of a fundementalist Mullah's moral superiority produces broad understanding of your experiences of watching Kill Bill 1&2? Does the resulting understanding produce sound moral judgment?

I did not intend to enter into a moral values discussion, but to provoke an examination of the perceptual processes of differing materials in different contexts. I asked questions, I did not offer any judjments other than what I believe are the judgments of the viewers I was refering to. I asked if we are incapable of imagining how they look to others. I simply asked what do the things we are accustomed to look like to others. I left the moral judgments to the reader after having considered the perceptual process.

You call this moral relativism and then jump to a detailed listing of others moral failings while dismissing through moral relativity, the possible effects of our cultural products because of the greater sins of the projected audience. To me this looks like what I project are the moral judgments of fundemetalist Mullahs, littanies of the offenses of the infidels while dismissing like examination of ones own cultural characteristics. The result is that you miss the point entirely and simply go on the attack.

Not sure if this has been covered in some other thread, but I recommend watching "The Fog of War" (and, hey, we get to do it using our Axiom speakers!). Some of the key points (to me) by Robert McNamara about three different conflicts were:

WW II - McNamara worked under General LeMay, who led the firebombing of some 67 Japanese cities, burning to death 100,000 civilians in Tokyo in one night, according to McNamara. McNamara said that LeMay once told him they would both have been prosecuted as war criminals if we had lost the war. I don't comment on this now to criticize how we waged war on Japan, but to note how different the world is now. Unless we are attacked directly by some other nation, we can't just go in and unleash all-out war like we did in WW II. It's a very different matter fighting an insurgency in Iraq.

Cuban Missile Crisis - McNamara says the CIA erroneously reported that the missiles in Cuba did not have nuclear warheads yet, when they in fact did. LeMay wanted to launch an all-out invasion of Cuba, which likely would have triggered a nuclear conflagration. Fortunately, according to McNamara, the U.S. ambassador to the USSR, Thompson, understood what was needed to get Kruschev to back down, and his plan worked.

VietNam - McNamara basically said that we didn't understand our enemy, we didn't understand what was really going on, and we were wrong about that war.

One of his big themes was how easy it is, in the "fog of war," to make mistakes. He suggested that, given the possibility of error and the grave consequences of war, if the case for war is not so clearcut as to garner the support of our allies, going to war unilaterally may well be a mistake.

Anyway, whether you agree or disagree with him, it's interesting to hear what McNamara has to say about war.

Sorry md55, but you lost me. I thought your point was that we shouldn't criticize those who cut off heads or the culture which celebrates such atrocities because we have offended them by flooding their society with our "sexually depraved" entertainment and because in our own way we are just as bad.

I also took your point to be that since our culture is not perfect we are in no position to criticize the values of the culture of the head takers.

BTW, seems to me that when you talk about the "spectrum of violent video material" you are conflating fictional depictions of violence with snuff/recruitment videos - video recordings of actual murders.

I think I understand the world view of the mullahs, and of course I don't ascribe any moral superiority to such a world view. I am judgmental and consider such folks (folks who issue fatwas against Salman Rushdie or who take the heads off of living human beings, or celebrate such conduct) to be moral imbeciles.

I'm sure I've missed your point because it seems to me that you propose an analysis which purposefully avoids taking into account the moral value of the conduct under discussion.

As to the rest of your point, again, you lost me, and I'd be very grateful if you could take the time to provide clarification as to what you're point is.

2x6, you could always try re-reading md55's post after clearing your mind of the misconception that everything he says is bullshit.

pmb, if I wanted to say that everything md55 says is bullshit, I'd say it. I've read his post several times and I just don't understand his point. If you can explain what you think he means, I'd appreciate it.

I didn't get it either, but was afraid of displaying my ignorance.

Yeah, I'm with Will. I happily admit that I didn't understand hardly a word of md55's post!

Okay, md55, here is the fundamental question I think we'd like you to answer: Do you believe that producing and distributing a violent movie like Kill Bill as morally wrong as beheading innocent men, taping it, and distributing the footage all over the world?

Fair enough, 2x6.

Tell me which part you don't understand and I'll try to help you out. I admit I had to read the first paragraph a couple times myself, but the other two are pretty clear to me.

I took your original post at face value, the question you asked was should we watch it? To me the question was about how it affected people and if it was a good thing to WATCH. The misunderstanding comes from passing moral judgment on the actions behind what was seen. I was addressing the issue of how viewers are affected by different material and how that can be very different based on ones life experiences, culture, beliefs etc.

I don't think you can really understand my point if you cannot suspend making value judgments that prevent you from seeing things from other perspectives than your own. If you keep thinking I am talking about moral equivalencies you will miss the point. Is their a moral equivalency between seeing a stretch of road from a car as you drive past as compared to walking along the road? You might manufacture one in your mind I suppose, but what I am talking about is experiencing things from different perspectives in order to see and understand more.

You are sickened by seeing the filming of an actual beheading as most of us would be. It goes against all of our conditioning and experience. The revulsion is almost overwhelming. It is very hard to understand how anyone could do such a thing, tape it and send it out into the world. It produces anger, even hatred towards those who have "created" this thing you have witnessed. It does not apparently produce that same reaction in the culture that produced it. Many in that culture however seem to think we are a depraved and corrupting culture and have started attacking us. We can’t understand it because we never intended them any harm, in fact never thought much about them at all.

There doesn’t have to be any moral equivalency whatsoever between two things from different cultures for each culture to feel harmed by the other. I was simply asking if in seeing something that so affected you, did you, or others, ever think about how the things we watch might be perceived as affecting others.

The ultimate point is the question: can the people of the world step out of their own self-absorption and really try to understand each other?

So I'll answer your question with a question: What difference could it possibly make in any significant way for me or anyone else to try and find moral equivalency between "producing and distributing a violent movie like Kill Bill as morally wrong as beheading innocent men, taping it, and distributing the footage all over the world?"

Here's another one for you md55. Please consider this AP story in light of md55's suggestion that "the misunderstanding comes from passing moral judgment on the actions behind what was seen."

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DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - A videotape shows British hostage Kenneth Bigley being beheaded by his captors in Iraq, a witness who saw the tape said Friday.
The witness, who asked not to be identified by name, said the tape shows six hooded, armed men standing behind the kneeling Bigley, whom the witness recognized from two previous tapes released by the kidnappers.

One of the six then spoke in Arabic for about a minute. Afterward, the speaker took a knife from his belt and severed Bigley's head as three others held him down, the witness said. The tape ends with the killer holding up the severed head.

British officials in Baghdad said they had no confirmation that Bigley was dead, and American military authorities said no body had been found.

Bigley, 62, was abducted along with two Americans from their home in the upscale Mansour neighborhood by members of Tawhid and Jihad, Iraq's most feared terrorist group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who demanded the release of all female prisoners held by the coalition in Iraq.

The two Americans — Eugene Armstrong, 52, and Jack Hensley, 48 — were decapitated a few days later.

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So, md55 asks us to suspend our "value judgments" and asks us to see "things from the other perspectives than your own." So turn off your cultural and moral "filters," just kick back and enjoy the video of these IslamoFascist Butchers (oops, filter must've kicked in) cut the head off of this hapless HUMAN BEING, this innocent, screaming, terrified, man whose mother appealed for mercy, this Mr. Bigley who felt the knife sever his head from his body, felt the agony, the dread as his most precious life was taken, the agony of trying to breathe after the trachea is severed, the realization that "this is how I die, murdered by the cheering faithful."

I mean really, md55 is right. Road Runner cartoons and their gratuitous violence, the Playboy Channel and its depraved sexuality are not only just as bad as the depiction of some IslamoFascist sawing the head off a screaming Mr. Bigley, but it could be argued that we made them do it, that these poor IslamoFascists were merely reacting to the insult and assault against their culture posed by our depraved entertainment media.

The problem with md55's request that we "turn off our cultural filters" is that what he is really saying is that in order to "understand," we must first set aside our morality and values, after all, who is to say one set of values or one culture's morality is superior to that of another?

I say, hold your values tight, recognize that the war which is being fought against us is a war against our values and morality. The list of murders is too long to recount, however, just think of 9/11, and the thousands reduced to ash and dust who had been going about their business in the beautiful twin towers on that dread day. That attack was an act of war, not the first, but certainly the one which roused the pride and sense of victory of IslamoFascists all over the world. So, now we struggle to formulate a policy and war fighting doctrine against a culture which makes war on us. What is the nature of the struggle? It is a struggle based on our sense of morality, our strong desire not to cause injury to innocent people. Distinguish this sensitivity, my friends, distinguish it from the mentality which views all Christians, all Americans, all Jews, men, women, children, as enemies and proper targets. Consider Beslan, consider Ma'alot, consider the Palestinian parents who urge their children to blow themselves up if they can also take some Jews with them, and thereby buy their folks a new house, get them a Saudi check in the amount of a lifetime of wages. Yes, friends, this is a war of values, and if you are asked to set your values aside in order to understand, recognize that you are being asked to set aside the one frame of reference which can provide you with understanding.