Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64041 10/10/04 03:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
OK, this is probably going to get the same response as my first question about break-in, but...

When I was running a stereo system with M2s and a PSB 6i sub, I tried running with the sub's high pass filter wired between pre-out and amp-in on the receiver. Helped a lot when playing at higher volumes, but I really thought it hurt the imaging noticeably. Not terrible, but not as good as when I had the M2s playing full range.

I wrote it off as a side-effect of having a 12 db/8va passive high pass filter vs. a 24 db/8va active low pass filter in the sub, switched back to full-range on the M2s, then got inspired one night and ordered M60s. Full range, no problem.

Fast forward to the present. Shiny new HK AV receiver with lots of good DSP bits inside. Hook up the M60s, set them to "small" with the sub taking the overflow. Initial default was 100hz cutoff -- didn't like that so much, so split the crossovers and went to 60hz on the mains, 80 hz on the surrounds -- definitely sounded more like I remembered the M60s sounding on the stereo hookup.

I was playing around with the crossover some more tonight, and tried setting the mains back to "large". Holy &%^*, the nice sharp imaging came back (I was playing music at the time). Didn't sound too bad on a couple of DVDs either.

So, here's the question. For you people who run a mix of HT and music, how are you setting the mains ? Small or large ? Does anyone else find that running the mains through the crossover hurts the imaging, or is it just me ?

I don't understand how an LF crossover can really affect imaging, which I *thought* happened mostly up in the KHz range... any ideas ?

Thanks,
JB

P.S. There's that song on the radio again -- "Amazing Grace" sung to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". What's that all about ?




M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64042 10/10/04 04:28 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654
John, I'm also puzzled by what you report. My understanding is also that imaging depends on midrange and upper frequencies and that strengthening response in the mains below 80Hz or so by setting them large can't affect it significantly since those frequencies are essentially omni-directional. Theory aside, in a system where I use a sub I always set all speakers "small" and it sounds a bit better(no change in imaging, however).


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64043 10/10/04 04:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
OK, found the first clue. The receiver UI seems to include quite a bit of "if you set this then I automatically change these other settings" logic. I was running in "surround off" mode, which by default bypasses all the DSP processing. If the mains are switched from "Large" to "Small" then the surround mode is switched from "Surround Off" to "Surround Off + DSP", ie the signal starts going through the DSP in order to perform bass management.

Damn computers, I just can't get away from them.

I still wouldn't expect this to make much difference because I was playing the CDs on my DVD player through a coax digital feed so the only effect on the mains content should be the DSP's implementation of the 60 hz high-pass filter which I would expect to be negligible at the frequencies which matter to imaging.

Then again maybe years of abuse have rendered my ears incapable of hearing anything above 80 hz and so I'm getting all my imaging cues from the really LF stuff

One important point is that the better imaging in "Large" only applies when I'm playing in two-channel mode. Once I kick in a surround mode that extends the stereo content out to the surrounds (PL-II, Logic7 or Neo6) the difference between Small and Large is not really noticeable.


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64044 10/10/04 05:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
In reply to:

P.S. There's that song on the radio again -- "Amazing Grace" sung to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". What's that all about?


Isn't it great? The group that sings that one is The Blind Boys of Alabama. I had the great fortune of seeing them live as surprise guests at a Ben Harper show I saw at the Greek Theater in Berkeley a couple years ago. I highly recommend them if you're into that style of music.

Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64045 10/11/04 02:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 346
devotee
Offline
devotee
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 346
Oh my gosh...this is weird. I've owned my HK 630 for several months now and I just went back to do some large/small testing. The results were shocking! I didn't really do "stereo" testing. Mostly movie tests. 5.1 and 7.1 tests. Okay...bizarro but true. I tested the other night doing tons of A/B stuff with small vs. large. For the most part I focused on the center channel signal.
The test material was Lord of the Rings: Fellowship EE set to DTS-ES Discrete played in 7.1.

For a long time I had my center channel set to 80 Hz. I found that the sound was clear when set to this. But you know, the Axiom VP150 can go lower than 80 Hz...so I thought I'd test it at 60 Hz. My M60s (front mains) were set to 60 Hz...so why not balance the front end Hz cut-off. Seemed to make sense to me. Well...needless to say, the sound DID indeed change. The sound was a little fuller...on the low end. But again, we're talking dialoug...not something that should really be heard in the 60-80 Hz range. What took me a while to catch on to was that when I changed the crossover from 80 Hz to 60 Hz, for some odd reason, the high end of voices were getting cut off. Now, I don't know what the Hz range was...but it was well high enough that going deeper shouldn't change anything. So that's when I said...let's try large. Let's hear what an "untampered" signal sounds like. Whoa...not a huge change...but when you're being maticulous...it's a huge change.

There was just more subtle detail I was hearing in peoples voices. It was as it all should be heard. I tested these sounds with four peoples voices in the movie just to be certain. Bilbo, Gandalf, Galadrial, and Frodo. All utilizing different spectrums of sound. Each one had just a little bit more clarity and soundscape when set to large. Untampered. Now...needless to say this is depressing because my final analysis is that my receiver is compressing the sound in order to run it through the crossover. I'm obviously approaching this from a very analytical standpoint, but I feel when you spend thousands of dollars...you want to get the most of out of that investment.

Now, one might read this and say...if you like the large setting so much, just use that. Ahh...that's the biggest downfall. If you have all speakers set to large it considerably cuts down on subwoofer activity, which is very exciting in movies such as LOTR. So, it's a lose-lose situation, though setting the speakers to small is the best compromise as you get "most" of the sound out your main speakers and much more activity out of your subwoofer. But, compromise just doesn't sit well with me.

Harman Kardon definitly lost points with me when I found this out. I did everything I could think of even down to a factory reset (reboot). Same results.
So, what's my conclusion? I'm receiver shopping. Currently looking at the Denon 3805. Looking for a receiver that won't "mess" with the sound.

Sad It's a sexy looking receiver if anything, but not a pure one.


"We're on the island of Misfit Toys"
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64046 10/11/04 02:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
Don't be too quick to dump on the receiver... I believe I saw exactly the same issue when I was running through the analog high-pass filter in my subwoofer.

I have never heard any specific criticism of the HK signal processing; if anything the HK bass management is felt to be very flexible and to have high sound quality.

We should both try to run the same tests with a competitive receiver before we start thinking bad of HK... right now there is no reason to believe a Denon etc... would be any different. I'm not saying I have another explanation but I don't think we should blame the receivers too quickly.

Then again if you had posted this *before* I picked up my 630 I guess I would have said "yes, dump that piece of junk before it messes up your system any more... and sell it to me"


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64047 10/11/04 03:32 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
H/K 525...I have my M50s set to Large with sub for music, and small with a 60 hz cross to the sub for TiVo/movies. I've got QS4s for surrounds, so I set those and the nonexistant center (well, the TV speakers) to cross at 100 Hz. The funny thing with the H/K is that you have to set a subwoofer crossover, too, if you set the bass manager to independant (by input). I had mine set to 60 Hz, from when I just had the 50s. I realized that when I was recalibrating today, and I set it up to 100. Dialog's significantly better now. I think the way it's set up is the sub's crossover setting on the receiver is the maximum cutoff for the sub, so sounds below 60 from the fronts get sent over, and sounds below 100 for the center/surround get sent over. It's very confusing, and not well documented at all.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64048 10/11/04 03:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
>>The funny thing with the H/K is that you have to set a subwoofer crossover, too, if you set the bass manager to independant (by input). I had mine set to 60 Hz, from when I just had the 50s. I realized that when I was recalibrating today, and I set it up to 100.

Ahh, that's what "independent" means. I had initially assumed it meant "independent crossover fequencies", realized that wasn't right, but hadn't spent enough time reading the manual to find out what it *did* mean

Different x-over frequencies for different inputs. VERY interesting, this might help with the "music vs. HT" issue as well. Thanks !!


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64049 10/11/04 03:48 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
Exactly. I figure it doesn't hurt to run the sub+mains on music, especially if I set them to large. Sure, it's going through some sort of processing, but I can't hear the difference.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Large vs. small setting on mains for music, HT
#64050 10/11/04 03:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
axiomite
OP Offline
axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379
Likes: 7
>>There was just more subtle detail I was hearing in peoples voices. It was as it all should be heard. I tested these sounds with four peoples voices in the movie just to be certain. Bilbo, Gandalf, Galadrial, and Frodo. All utilizing different spectrums of sound. Each one had just a little bit more clarity and soundscape when set to large. Untampered.

Just had a thought... did you still have the center crossover set to 60 hz when you did this ? If so, maybe the mains were just filling in the "60-80hz hole" -- I bet the VPxxx speakers roll off a bit below 80 so you would get a small "hole" in frequency response between 60 and 80.

Other question for everyone -- in a typical DVD (let's say LOTR) do the mains get DIFFERENT lf content from the LFE channel, or do they just get another copy of the same information. In other words, is the "reduced subwoofer output" from setting the mains to Large just the fact that one copy of the information is lost, ie dropping a few dB which could be negated by raising the sub output level the same amount ?

Or, in simpler words, when we switch from "small" to "large" on the mains should we turn the sub up a bit to compensate for the lost LFE or is it more complicated than that ?


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Link Copied to Clipboard

Need Help Graphic

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics24,940
Posts442,457
Members15,616
Most Online2,082
Jan 22nd, 2020
Top Posters
Ken.C 18,044
pmbuko 16,441
SirQuack 13,840
CV 12,077
MarkSJohnson 11,458
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 558 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4