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low volume listening levels
#6885 11/17/02 07:35 PM
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Hope this question isn't too off the wall, but I'm finally going to bite the bullit and replace my two decade old stereo system (SAE Two receiver & speakerlab 7's), and have decided to go with axioms for my speakers and a Denon AVR-3803 for the reciever. My biggest complaint with my current set-up is that now that I'm older and alot grayer, the speakerlabs really sound like crap at lower volumes. Am I going to have similar complaints with the axioms?

I'm currently trying to decide between the epic grand master system and the epic 80 system. At this point I think I'm inclined to go with the epic 80 system, but am concerned that at lower volumes there may not be much difference between the two. I guess I'm making the assumption that the 80's only really shine at higher volumes.

Perhaps I'm just basing my concerns on 2-decade old techology that was never meant to be heard at low volumes, but I have read through most of the messages on this board, and have found no info on how the systems sound and compare at lower volumes (guess I'm getting old). Any comment or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


Re: low volume listening levels
#6886 11/18/02 02:33 PM
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Since you seem to have a high budget, my best advice to you is to buy the best speakers Axiom can sell you. In other words, The Epic 80

M80
VP150
QS8
EP350 (if you buy an Axiom sub).

This way, you cannot regret your decision.

Re: low volume listening levels
#6887 11/18/02 04:20 PM
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I don't think your question or concern is at all invalid.

When we were looking around to purchase our system we had several requirements in mind, one of which was a speaker system that could perform at regular (low) listening levels and yet be able to pump out some powerful sound when required (relatively infrequent).
As i sit downstairs and read a book or play with the dogs, i often turn on my Axioms with some music and play it at a reasonable sound level.
Personally i have not noticed any change in the speakers across volumes although any of the brightness often referred to as being characteristic of Axioms is very decreased at lower volumes. This seems to make the Axiom sound even more smooth and yet still very clear.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: low volume listening levels
#6888 11/18/02 04:33 PM
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Bob,

I have exactly the same concerns as you do. I prefer low volume when I watch movies but I would like to clearly hear the words the actors and actresses are saying and I prefer classical and easy listening music at decent volume only. I purchased Epic 80 and the set does exactly what I envisioned. Clear words in movies and distinct notes in music plus I am immersed in the movie environment when the surround sounds and EP350 kick in. They are not overpowering at all.

The bonus is when my son visits me and would like to play loud, my system could take him on.

I have not written my review on my Epic 80 because I just finished setting it up last weekend and I have not received the home theater tune up from Sound and Vision. My calibration is just from the set up procedure from my Denon 3803. So far, I have an extremely pleasurable movie watching and music listening experience.

Re: low volume listening levels
#6889 11/18/02 05:02 PM
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I don't think you will have a problem with low listening volumes, but one thing does concern me. As far as I can tell the 3803 isn't rated for 4ohm speakers. In the manual it lists 210w/ch at 4ohms. But in the output terminal specs it lists 6-16ohms for the speakers. They list the THD going from 0.05% at 8ohms to 0.7% at 6ohms, and don't list 4ohms at all, so who know how bad it would be. (The 4802 has the better 0.05% at 6ohms)

I see other people are using a 3803 with M80s so I guess it works, but it doesn't look like it was ment for it. I looked and not even the 4802 or 5803 list 4ohm output in their specs. (Though like the 3803 it is listed in the dynamic power category)

I looked at Onkyo's site, and found that even their top of the line TX-DS989II can only handle >=6ohm speakers. But, their newer TX-SR800, and TX-NR900 have 4ohm support, and even list 3ohm specs in the dynamic power category.

Michael


Re: low volume listening levels
#6890 11/18/02 07:28 PM
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I also thought 3803 is "not designed for M80" because the range on the receiver says 6-16 ohms. But it played well so I guess it is okay. But here is the official word from Denon:

"CAN I USE 4 OHM LOUDSPEAKERS WITH MY DENON RECEIVER OR POWER AMPLIFIER?

Yes, you certainly can.

To understand this a bit better, first realize that all amplifiers are designed to deliver a signal into an electrical "load" or resistance presented by the loudspeaker. We measure resistance in units called "ohms" (after the German physicist Georg Simon Ohm, 1787–1854).

Conventional wisdom makes an 8 ohm loudspeaker load the most acceptable because it "protects" the amplifier from delivering too much current. A 4 ohm loudspeaker can encourage a marginally designed amplifier to deliver more current than it comfortably can.

However, you should remember that a loudspeaker’s impedance rating is a nominal or average one: A speaker rated at 8 ohms may actually vary from 5 (sometimes even less) to 20 ohms or higher, depending on the frequency at which you measure the impedance. (Don’t worry about this too much -- good speaker engineers are well aware of these variations and take them into consideration when designing products.)"


Re: low volume listening levels
#6891 11/18/02 08:10 PM
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Yep, and that is why a receiver rated for 6ohm speakers has some specs listed for 4ohms.. Since 6ohm speakers may vary from 4ohms to 16ohms. (or even wider) But if it were designed for 4ohm speakers it has to support even lower ohmage. (For instance the Onkyo receivers that support 4ohm speakers list specs down to 3ohms)

In any case you probably won't have any problems unless you turn it way up, and even then it should only trip the 'protection circuit'. But, in any case if something does go really wrong, they always have the out of saying "It's your fault because you hooked up speakers that aren't supported"

Re: low volume listening levels
#6892 11/18/02 10:44 PM
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I have the Epic 80 in a smaller room witha lower end Yamaha receiver (85x5 if memory serves) and have no problem with low levels. Certainly, it sounds better loud but it's still beautiful low. In many ways it actually sounds a bit better as it tends to overpower the room a bit at half volume.

Regards,
Semi

Re: low volume listening levels
#6893 11/19/02 08:29 PM
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Bob,

We purchased a system similar to the one you're considering. We replaced our 15 yr old system for a Denon 3802 and Axiom MP60, VP150, and QS8. In my opinion, they do a terrific job at low volume listening (around -35db after calibrating sound levels with Sound and Vision Home Theater DVD). They're outstanding at normal and high volume listening.

A problem area for us was in finding a subwoofer that responded to the receiver signals at low level volumes. Many have an auto on/off feature that turns the sub on if a minimum signal is present and turns the sub off if the signal drops below the minimum. At the sound levels I use at night, this was a problem as the sub would either not come on or would cut off after only a few minutes of listening.

Some subs have a switch that defeats the auto on/off allowing for the sub to remain on regardless of the level of signal from the receiver. That would be one solution, but we were able to find subs (and audition them in our home) that had the auto on/off and were sensitive enough to come on and stay on at low level listening; they were Def Tech ProSub 200 and 15TL+; Sunfire Signature; Velodyne SPL1200 and HGS II-12. Also, and perhaps more importantly, these were, in my opinion, some of the more musical subs I'd heard.

Hope this helps.

Re: low volume listening levels
#6894 11/20/02 06:07 PM
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Hi Bob,

A point that I addressed some time ago that hasn't arisen here is that at low volume levels, our hearing is very insensitive to low frequencies, which is why we tend to find speakers lack oomph at low listening levels. It's not a function of different speakers; it's the nature of human hearing!

These curves (the Fletcher-Munson curves, named after the researchers who first investigated this phenomenon, were updated in later years) actually show how are hearing sensitivity to different frequencies operates at different sound pressure levels.

Older receivers and preamps always had separate "Loudness" controls (not the volume) that compensated for our hearing losses as we turned down the level by gradually boosting bass and a little upper treble. Some of these were crude switches that inserted a 10-dB bass boost, so they fell into disfavor.

Yamaha continues to offer a sophisticated Loudness control on some of its receivers and preamps.

Lots of A/V receivers also offer a "late-night" mode in the setup menu that inserts a digital compressor on the Dolby Digital or dts signal, removing the huge dynamic range swings so you can listen at low levels and still get some subwoofer information without waking your neighbors or family.

Regards,


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
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